Has anyone gotten Strawberry to work in Rhythm Guitar Mode?

[mhschmieder]

After several nights of re-reading the manual and trying every possibility, I still am unable to get Orange Trees Samples Evolution Guitar Strawberry to work properly in Rhythm Guitar Mode, so am stuck using it in Lead Guitar Mode even for rhythm parts.

I even tried transposing all of my chords into root position from their original inversions, to see if it was a chord detection issue, and tried playing it in real time as well. I must have tried every possible combination of settings, but I never get anything more than string release samples -- which I only notice if I pump the volume way up (at least this was a sanity check that it IS passing audio when it's in Rhythm Guitar Mode).

Not only am I surprised that no experimentation has produced results, but I also had the impression it was an "out of the box" type of product, meaning that my experimentation should merely have been finessing the results vs. being desperate shots in the dark to try to get any results at all!

The Lead Mode is wonderful, and even when I want something other than a Les Paul I use this library instead, as it puts everything else to shame in terms of organic phrasing, realism, and depth.

I keep waiting to see Vir2 Electri6ity on sale, but for now, this is my end-all and be-all of guitar libraries -- if only I could get Rhythm Guitar Mode to work!

I may just try Shreddage for now, even though it is Heavy Metal oriented (and I'm working on a reggae tune), to see if I can at least get it to work properly for strumming chords (or at least produce audio signal!).

[mhschmieder]

I think I may have it figured out, and it's a matter of the documentation being less than sufficient (though should have visually shown some examples as their words are too ambiguous on their own).

If I simultaneously play in the control-mapped zones and the "chord detection" zones, then I finally get audio corresponding to the voiced chord alongside the pitch of whatever note I play in the lower pink zone. If I play that note on its own, I hear it, but without any auto-chord like I expected. Playing the chord on its own in the blue zone, results in no sound except release samples.

As none of this matches my interpretation of the documentation -- even after a re-read after getting some results finally -- it's just going to take continued experimentation. Right now it seems like it isn't doing anything, regardless of settings, and that it instead requires extra effort from just playing the same manual inversions in Lead Mode (without any additional doubling an octave lower as is required in Rhythm Mode).

[mhschmieder]

I give up; it isn't worth it. The relationship between the Edit Chord menu and what actually happens when you play (or what you need to play given those settings) is too arcane, and not helpful towards what most of us REALLY want, which is RealGuitar and RealStrat with better sounds. The whole point of a Rhythm Guitar Mode should be to take a tightly spaced root or inversion and spread it out across the guitar, with root and/or third and/or fifth doubling.

As far as I can tell, this is far removed from the functionality of the Rhythm Guitar Mode in Strawberry. It seems primarily focused on allowing reassignment of which string is used, and which position, for each note in a chord (at its sounded/played pitch). While that is useful towards realism, it could just as easily be done differently (as in RealGuitar) and without the convoluted process of having to select one combination at a time with three separate drop-lists.

I'll just stick with Lead Guitar Mode for now, and spread out my voicings a little bit more manually. I always prefer to play the inversion I want to start with anyway, on my own -- even with RealGuitar, I only use its auto-voicing modes when dealing with somebody else's guitar MIDI track or revisiting a legacy project.

[gregjazz]

Hi,

Have you tried pressing the strum keys while a chord is held? The playability is non-standard, so it's not what you'd immediately expect. Holding down chords won't make any sound until you actually press a strum key. That way you can hold down a chord, and play the strumming pattern with your other hand (whether you are right or left handed, there are duplicate octaves of strumming key below and above the main chord detection range).

Let me know if that helps, or if it's still not working.

I'm also working on an update for the Evolution guitar engine, too, so I'm aiming to solve these issues with playability by making things more intuitive. One of the main things I'm doing is combining both the lead and rhythm engines, so you don't have to have multiple patches loaded up in order to switch between those playing modes. If you have any requests for functionality, just let me know.

Kind regards,

Greg

[charlesparente]

Hi Mark:

The mod wheel controls which inversion is used for a given chord. There are 3 variations triggered depending on the mod wheel position.
You can customize the notes/strings used for each of the 3 variations per chord.

But for live playing, moving the mod wheel to select a new chord variation 'cuts off' the chord detection engine, so the chord needs to be [very quickly!--and I'm not that fast...] re-fingered with the chord hand once the mod wheel is moved.
This is not an issue if doing MIDI sequencing-just when playing live.

Let us know if this helps...

-Charles

[gregjazz]

But for live playing, moving the mod wheel to select a new chord variation 'cuts off' the chord detection engine, so the chord needs to be [very quickly!--and I'm not that fast...] re-fingered with the chord hand once the mod wheel is moved.

Definitely--when you move the mod wheel to change inversions or alternate chord voicings, essentially the virtual guitarist moves his hand to the new chord, which involves releasing the original chord. While it's realistic to have a little gap between the chords, you do have to be fast.

By the way, you can use the sustain pedal to hold chords beyond when you release the chord in the chord detection zone. That helps to hold the chord while you move your hand to the next chord.

[charlesparente]

Thanks, Greg-- for the sustain pedal tip!
I have some suggestions for chord/strumming mode that I'll submit on your forum...

[gregjazz]

Great, thanks for taking the time to write out that post! I really appreciate the suggestions.

[mhschmieder]

Thanks for the advice and the hints and de-obfuscation of some of the switching techniques. I'll try some of those out tomorrow (just got back from a far-away four hour jazz gig so am tired, but was able to take in everything being said here).

I did figure out the simultaneous thingie last night with the keyboard sections, but I was purely mouse-and-keyboard bound by that point in the evening, so once the light bulb flashed I was nearing the end of a useful session. The hints above will help me get further on my next session, so I no longer feel stymied.

I LOVE the sound of this library, and hope a Strat and/or Tele is coming soon!

Hmm, combining Lead and Rhythm Mode might indeed be an improvement, being that they don't really conflict with each other right now in terms of settings etc. In reggae playing one usually goes back and forth between rhythm and lead anyway, and this also applies to other genres.

I think the main thing right now is that the documentation is either incomplete or that some examples need to be given, such as some of Greg's helpful hints (which I'm guessing he's already integrated into the next version of the manual).

Just as with Iconic Bass, I am finding Lead Mode on Strawberry to be far easier to understand and work with than the Prominy libraries and other mega-libraries. The only one I don't have experience with yet is Vir2's Electri6ity, which I will at some point buy, but I tend to find single-instrument libraries superior overall and mostly use the larger collections to fill in the gaps.

The results I have gotten with Electri6ity in Lead Mode have truly amazed me, as normally I only find sampled guitars acceptable when buried in the mix and not a prominent part of the music. I am especially happy that Orange Tree Samples have given us D.I. samples in their libraries, which are so much easier to work with in a large variety of contexts than already-amped samples. One can of course always re-amp a D.I. sampled guitar vs. using a plug-in, and I'm going to try that out soon with my Mesa/Boogie Lonestar 2x12.

[mhschmieder]

OK, I got it to work "as designed" tonight, and spent three to four hours with it in Rhythm Mode, switching to held chords in the right hand (root position this time, even though not essential), and defining the rhythm strictly with the left hand root note strum trigger.

It's a bit strange to not have the Mod Wheel chord inversion ranges documented, as it doesn't seem consistent from one chord to the next. I thought I had it figured at 0-42 root position, 43-84 1st inversion, 75-127 2nd inversion. But this didn't play out consistently on all chords.

The other thing is that I think the played chord should also define its octave, and there should be more control over what register the inversion winds up in.

In spite of these quirks, the overall sound is better than other rhythm-based guitar products I have owned and tried, so I am confident that future revisions will make it more user-friendly.

At the end of the session though, I reverted to my earlier take using the Palm Muting Lead preset -- primarily because it seemed the only way to easily guarantee my preferred register for each chord inversion.

I gather in Rhythm Mode that I would need to redefine the default chord voicings across the guitar, and did note that different presets come with different initial settings (my preference is the Reggae Mon preset, for this particular project). I don't have the patience for that, just for late night mockup purposes and given that each usage would be different. But I'll see on other projects whether the usage style of Rhythm Mode is closer to each project's needs.

I guess my basic recommendation, beyond more thoroughly documenting some of the details, is to provide a more direct path to firmly establishing the precise chord voicings in terms of register and doubling.

[Prime Mover]

Some great advice! That pedal tip is going to save my butt, I was really having trouble dealing with changes.

It's still really awkward though, using one hand to play the strum, and the other hand to make the chord. As a bass player, it should be second nature, but when I sit in front of the keys, I think like a keyboardist, and it's hard to get myself to change. I constantly find myself hitting the chord change slightly after the strum, and screwing things up. Just takes practice, I guess.

The mod wheel thing is good to know, however, that seems kinda awkward to control, since you'd need a third hand to really control it with any finesse. Maybe it can be remapped to CC4 (foot pedal), that seems much more usable.

I think a great way of doing things would be to use the pitch wheel as the strummer. Pitch up for downstroke, pitch down for upstroke, and the speed at which you move would control how fast the strum is. Mod could be muting. I think this would lend itself to a much more natural way of playing, since it would remove your left hand from thinking like a pianist.

[mhschmieder]

A completely revised version of Strawberry was released yesterday, with a single Kontakt preset and loads of details in the GUI.

I was under tremendous time pressure so couldn't properly master the new version. It's PROBABLY better -- especially in real time use -- but I completely failed to get the results I needed in terms of replacing some previous tracks done with the earlier version. In my view, the manual is not detailed enough yet. But I think there might be a Tutorial also.

I was specifically working with muted playing styles, for strummed parts as well as picked single note parts. For the strummed parts, I ended up having to go to the Strum Sustain articulation to get muting. For single note parts, the Palm Muting articulation worked for me.

In both cases though, I had zero control over the amount of muting. I tried every approach. Keyswitching was useless for pre-recorded parts as I would have to hold the keyswitch trigger note throughout the entire song for it to achieve muting on the played parts.

Velocity-based triggers were the worst of all as they seem to merely set the velocity level at which muting happens or not, as opposed to the level of muting. So I switched to CC-based triggering, setting the range from 0 to 1 as larger ranges also caused a pitch shift for some reason (on the Strum Muting articulation, which I soon abandoned altogether). I set the CC #1 to 1 before the start of the playing.

The results are now acceptable, and better than the previous version, but the manual implies that we can control the amount of muting. I even tried the separate Resonance page for Sustain and Muting, but the effect was either subtle or placebo in nature. So I remain mystified.

At any rate, for strummed parts, Strum Sustain triggered by CC #1 set to a range of [ 0, 1 ] and a value of 1, gave me realistic sounding muting of strummed parts (whereas Strum Muting was too abrupt, right after the initial attack).

For picked lead lines, Palm Muting using the same settings, gave me the same sort of results that the Palm Muting preset did in the previous version (I was using that patch also for strummed parts that I wanted muted, but I think also the old version had separate patches for lead vs. rhythm playing).

I also did a regular unmuted lead line with picking style set to 1/8 notes, and that came out pretty well.

The overall timbre is more realistic, and note-to-note connectivity is better, in this release. Also, no phasiness in the sound as before.

I look forward to better learning how to use the new version, given that so far I am not finding many of the settings to do what I expected. Hopefully I'll find a tutorial or other notes soon. And I sort of wish I had saved the old version for GUI comparisons (though I have it, and the PDF, on a backup drive). I didn't realize this version would be like an entirely new instrument, even with some carryover concepts.

For those who didn't purchase it before, it is on an incentive discount during the first few weeks of the new version's release.

Not sure if the acoustic guitar library will get a similar makeover.

[kgdrum]

I haven't dl yet but you are correct this is a new instrument,samples ,scripting etc...on KVR thread Greg is suggesting if you have space for both libraries you might want to keep both and use the older EEG for legacy projects it was used on.

[mhschmieder]

Yeah, it isn't a Kontakt Player Library so it's possible to have both sitting around. I had forgotten it wasn't an installable library so just did the overwrite when I installed. I may restore the old one from backup later on, but I tend to move on as older stuff usually stops working after a few updates to host software etc.

There are some significant new features in this version, aside from the rethink about workflow and usability. So I may even give this a try on another project where I was using MusicLab RealGuitar series before. There's only one or two projects where I was using software to generate chord voicings etc. -- usually I do that all by hand beforehand.

[mhschmieder]

The update to Steel Strings is forthcoming, and Greg also hints only slightly obtusely that maybe a 12-string library is on its way (well, it could be an 8-string classical guitar...).