recording a master problem

[ZENZOMIX]

how i can record an entire session(16 tracks) without use the bounce to disk.in dp 4.6 (g5 mac os x 10.3.9) 3;5 ram
i have on the mix
16 tracks ,8mono and 8 stereo
1 master track
4 aux track (2 for reverb)(1for compressor)(1for fx)
i try to create a new aux track n5 with a stereo track set to this aux n5
in record mode . but in this way just blank recording coming out.
i forget somethings to set?
please if somebody know the routage exactly. big thank you
normally i use bounce to disk for this kind of operation.
but i think sound is better when is recorded direct to one stereo track.
so i want try the difference with bounce to disk

[Tim]

Create a stereo audio track and set it's input to an unused stereo bus.
Change the outputs of all of the tracks (including Aux and Master) to that same bus.

To change all the track outputs at once:
After the first step, Select/Highlight all tracks except the one created to record the mix to. Hit Option-A to open the Audio Assignments window. Deselect 'Assign Inputs' and 'Assign Voices'. Select 'Assign Outputs' and 'Assign All...'. Deselect 'Skip Master...'. Select the output bus. Hit OK.

[Splinter]

normally i use bounce to disk for this kind of operation.
but i think sound is better when is recorded direct to one stereo track.
so i want try the difference with bounce to disk

There is absolutely no difference between BTD and a realtime bounce. I've proven it multiple times using the 180 degree phase flip when playing booth mixes back and they cancell each other out 100%. Don't waste your time unless you need to bounce some realtime tracks with tracks in the box.

[wynsmth]

I've heard the same story about the bounce & live mix canceling out (mostly from Magic Dave) but every time (about 7 times) I have had musicians and other engineers listen to both (they all had no idea which was which), they always pick the live mix. I have to agree with them, the live mix "sounds" better to me. It just sounds more real with better imaging. It's not a huge difference but it is noticeable and worthwhile to me IMHO.

[Splinter]

the live mix "sounds" better to me. It just sounds more real with better imaging. It's not a huge difference but it is noticeable and worthwhile to me IMHO.

I'll say it again...

There is absolutely no difference between BTD and a realtime bounce. I've proven it multiple times using the 180 degree phase flip when playing both mixes back and they cancel each other out 100%.

Try it yourself. They cancel 100%. It is all in your head. They can't cancel 100% if they are not identical. The only time they won't cancel is if you have an unsynced modulation plug which could potentially change the sound of the mix, but nonetheless, BTD is an identical process to a realtime bounce, only faster. The realtime bounce sounding better is a myth. I've proven it so many times it makes my head spin just thinking about it.

[westla]

I gotta agree with Slinter .. .there is absolutely no difference between BTD and recording a stereo track.

(as long as you're recording the same signal)

I live in an area where there are a bunch of composer around the block. And one day over lunch we got to talking about this very subject. So the 6 of us, along with 6 assistants (I actually was the one composer who doesn't have an assistant, but one of the composers has two ... so it all evened out).

We went to one of the studios and did a test where we did a recording of:

1. all synth cue ( a mock up)
2. the same cue recorded with live players

We then recorded the files as a BTD and a stereo track. We then had one of the assistants play the files for us.

The results .... 9 of us thought they sounded the same (or couldn't really hear a difference), 1 thought the BTD sounded better, the other thought the stereo track sounded better.

Then we did the phase test and they cancelled each other out.

So .....

[wynsmth]

A lot has to do with your listening environment, monitors, D/A converters etc. It is a subtle difference but a difference no less but if you don't have a system that can reproduce the difference, then you won't hear it. Since I have no idea what listening environment you all have this may or may not be why. It could be that because they do cancel out, your mind is telling your ears there can't be a difference. Again, I don't know. I hear the difference and so did ALL the people I A/Bd the tracks for heard it. I've read a lot about analogue Vs digital summing as well. I played a couple of mixes for some engineer friends that were done both ways & they both picked the digital version so go figure. If it sounds better one way or another to you, go for it. That's the beauty of a program like DP, so many ways to accomplish what you set out to do.

[westla]

Maybe you weren't getting the exact same recorded info ... levels, etc.

Maybe that's why you heard a difference.

But if the tracks cancel each other out when flipped out of phase. THEY HAVE TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME!

But if you think it sounds better to not use BTD, by all means, do it. To each his own.

[jon]

It never ends....
For a few moments while reading the first post I thought what I have been handing over to clients for the past year as the final product was total spit and maybe just maybe I could have done something more to make it sound better and brighter. I bet most of them listened to there goods for the first time on the little mono speaker that comes right out of their PC tower. I guess that does not matter since I am the one who created it. Regardless the mixes never sound as good as they do when listened to as a LIVE MIX! After that it's up to the zound godz.

[wynsmth]

Just a wild guess but how are you flipping the phase. Motu's Trim plugin? Maybe, since it is software & no software is perfect, that is why it cancels out but can still sound different. Have you tried something else like Channelstrip to flip the phase? Or maybe out to 4 channels in a board with 2 channels flipped. I am interested because, logically, if the 2 are really identical and they should cancel out when the phase is flipped, how can they still sound different? Sometimes logic tells you 1 thing but reality tells you another. Again, just a guess.

[Fibes]

Time based plugs can sometimes be off between the two methods.


FWIW I'm getting a pop after about 5 seconds of a bounce on a particular session and when I mix in real time i'm not. Which one do you think i'm gonna pick?

I'm also getting crashes on every other bounce that seem to be related to quicktime. Hmmm.

[westla]

You right to think along those lines. So did we.

We flipped it everyway we could.

With MOTU Trim = cancelled

various other plugs = cancelled

on Mackie D8B = cancelled

we even sent the mono tracks into his mic pres and flipped one side = cancel

I gotta say with the ears in the room being pretty good, and logic and science telling us it's the same ... I tend to agree.

[Shooshie]

If you're convinced that what you're hearing is not the same, even though it cancels when flipped and compared to the original, then you need to do a double blind test.

••• One person sets up the test. Another person runs it.
1) the setup person re-labels the tracks "A" and "B." He doesn't tell anyone which track is which, but writes down the key and puts it out of sight.
2) The other person then rolls a single dice in a series of 10 rolls. Each time it will come up with an odd or even number. Write down "odd" and "even" on 10 lines on a piece of paper.
3) Now, that person plays the samples. For each "odd," he plays sample A. For each "even," he plays sample B. (or vice-versa, as long as it's consistent)
4) each person participating then guesses the identity of the played-back sample.
5) someone writes down the guesses on each line beside the "Odd" and "Even" lines.
6) When it's done, the first person pulls out the key--the labels--and writes them at the end of the line, beside each "odd" and "even."

There you have it. An honest method which defies any power of suggestion or cheating. In the end, statistics say that the guesses will favor one side of the other only a little. That number becomes negligible as you increase the number of trials. That is, if you did it 100 times, the guesses would tend to average out unless you were actually hearing a noticeable difference.

I did something like this years ago in a DAW shootout, and to everyone's surprise, Digital Performa won unanimously, even though it was only by a small difference.


Shooshie

[westla]

The test I mentioned in the earlier post was conducted in this way.

Jim (let's call him) recorded the tracks then put them in a seperate file called MockUp 1, MockUp 2, Live 1, Live 2.

And then someone else played the tracks for us to judge.