Matched pair for recording small youth choirs

[Dan Worley]

Starting next Thursday, I have to go record seven youth choirs at seven different churches who are singing background to some tracks that are already recorded. Recording choirs isn't my thing, but it will be a challenge and a lot of fun. I need to get a matched pair of mics. Nothing I have here fits the bill, nor do I want to take any of my mics out of the studio. I only have about $700 in the budget. Any recommendations?

Thanks!

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[Dwetmaster]

Maybe you could check out KelAudio. They have a matched pair of KelAudio HM-1 for about 200$. But don't be fooled by the cheap price. Their HM-3C are also excellent as a pair.

I also use a pair of Audio technica AT-3031 pretty extensively for this kind of stuff.
I think the AT-3031 are now discontinued but they have the AT-4041 which is in the same ballpark.

I recently recorded a 40-persons choir with a blend of these 4 mics and the church's 3 choir mic coming out of the ceiling. Everything was in my MOTU 896HD. I'm pretty pleased with the results.

[mikehalloran]

I do not use matched pair for this purpose. Instead I use MS micing.

Lots of articles online but essentially it is a figure 8 with the null point towards the center and a cardioid pointed towards the center.

DP has a nice MS Decoder plugin. You can play with it in post to tweak the stereo field.

Caution, you will not be able to monitor in stereo unless you have a hardware decoder (more than your budget and not necessary).

[mhschmieder]

Also Blumlein pair, but given the context of choir, whichever overhead technique you use, you'll probably at least want to go with omnis vs. figure-8's or some cardioid variant.

On that budget, I recommend Avenson STO-2's, which have amazing detail and come in a gorgeous hand-made wooden box. I bought mine B-stock (slight blemish) but then bought the box separately last week. These mics are every bit as good as an equivalent Earthworks (which uses the same Panasonic element) or even DPA, until you get to the super-expensive models that have an indetectable noise floor.

So, for choir work, depending on miking distance, size of choir, etc., you might or might not find the noise floor of Avenson STO-2's or equivalent Earthworks or DPA omni's to be too much to deal with. I can't easily check the specs right now as most of my mics and manuals are at the recording studio at the moment. You can find the specs via Google, probably.

I bought mine from Zen Pro Audio. Warren Dent is an amazing resource and really takes time to make sure his customers are happy and that they have the right tool for what they are trying to do. He might also have some sound clips at his website for the context you are interested in -- I haven't checked recently.

[mhschmieder]

Forum hangs messed up the continuity of my last posting, so I'm separating the two points in case of another crash.

Having re-read Mike's posting in more detail, I feel it is worth taking his advice vs. the standard omni pair advice (or cardioid pair) that is so often proscribed.

Mike has way more experience than I do recording choirs, so I would take his advice to heart regarding M/S with a figure-8/cardioid mic set.

One way to achieve this would be through Beyerdynamics' M130/M160 pair, but that's probably beyond your budget.

You MIGHT be able to afford the M130/M260 combination instead though. I own all three and they are not only wonderful and unique mics, but amazing value (especially considering the Euro to Dollar exchange rate and import fees). They also are not very fragile, being smaller diaphragm than most ribbons and a bit thicker as well (plus somewhat shielded).

The M260 isn't quite as flat as the M160, and is a half-hypercardioid pattern vs. the dual-ribbon design of the M160.

[Dan Worley]

Thanks, guys. I really appreciate your replies. I upped the budget by a few hundred bucks and I'm going to go with a matched pair of Beyerdynamic MC 930 in ORTF, or spaced, depending. I figure I can use them as drum overheads and for recording acoustic guitar (and whatever else) in the studio. So for the extra 300 bucks it's a good deal.

I need to go with SDC and cardioid because I don't have any idea what these rooms will be like.

As far as using M-S, I don't have a good figure-8 mic that I want to bring on the road.

Now I just need to get them here on time. Nothing like waiting to the last minute.

Many thanks.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[mikehalloran]

I do not use ORTF unless I am positive that there is no need for a mono reduction - ever. For example, I avoid it when doing film as it might go over a mono TV speaker.

M/S, on the other hand, collapses to mono perfectly should the need arise.

Interestingly, I made the decision to switch from ORTF to M/S when I used to do youth choir recordings for local schools in California.

A variation I sometimes use is three cardioid mics. Two are back to back facing the sides and the third facing the center. I use AKG C-3000 for the sides. The original ones have switches for cardioid or super cardioid but I found that the cardioid setting worked best. A Shure KSM-32 is my go-to center mic although I will use a C-3000 if sight lines are important due to its size and being black.

For M/S, I use a Groove Tubes FET GT-5000 (long discontinued) - set to figure-8 for the sides and either a KSM-32 or a Røde NT-3 for the center.

Nowdays when I use ORTF, I use it when there is nothing in the center. Drum overheads are good as one uses a kick mic also.

M/S saved a recording once in a San Francisco chamber concert. The church was near the water and that was the night of a local radio station (KFOG) Kaboom! - a 20 minute fireworks show. It went off during the second half and sounded like all hell had broken loose. Since the sounds came from outside the church, they were in phase to both sides. I eliminated the center channel in post and collapsed the sides to mono. The explosions were now out of phase and cancelled while the musicians (none were ever directly centered) came through clearly. One can hear the bombs as the faintest background noise only. OK, the result was mono but it sounded quite good and the composer thought I was a genius for making the explosions go away. I never told him how little work I had to perform on the mix.

Come to think of it, that was the last live recording I did to 1/2 track analog and the first project I ever did in DP, v2.3 I think. I ought to dig that up and post sound clips now that I have told my secret.

[mhschmieder]

Dan, I'll read the rest of the posts momentarily, but just wanted to quickly recommend the AudioTechnica ATM450's if you're thinking of a cardioid pair. I think I might have edited this out of my earlier response, thinking you'd want omnis or to follow Mike's suggestion of figure-8 + cardioid in M/A configuration.

I too was contemplating the EXCELLENT Beyerdynamic MC930's for quite some time, but ultimately picked up a pair of ATM450's as either a secondary cardioid pair or a stop-gap, only to find that they are so detailed and flat that I no longer feel the need for MC930's.

As the MC930's don't have the best noise floor anyway, I'm not sure the advantages over ATM450 in other areas would be noticed in a choral application (though they might be for piano, flute, acoustic guitar, etc.).

Probably the super-quiet Sennheiser e914's would be a better bet in that regard. I only have one so far, but plan to add a second one at some point, specifically for choral work -- though now I want to instead first try Mike's suggestion, and maybe also eventually Jecklin Disc. The e914 is probably the quietest, flattest, and most detailed mic in my collection.

[mhschmieder]

Wow, some excellent advice from Mike as always. I will take that point to heart about being careful with ORTF for things other than drum OH's (or other material that meets the stated criteria). I don't see this kind of detailed advice many places!

I own a KSM32 and it's the only Shure left in my collection. I suspect it will remain as it serves so many purposes -- especially now that Mike recommends it as the center mic in three mic setups. Maybe one of these days I'll do a Decca Tree.

Looks like you might have already ordered the Beyer MC930 pair. Prices fluctuate tremendously so I hope you got a good price. Those are EXCELLENT mics -- I recommended the ATM450's because they are of similar quality but are dirt cheap. Really, the only thing you need concern yourself with regarding the MC930's is their noise floor, if distant miking.

An interesting attribute of the MC930's is that they take on an omni character in some applications.

There are three mic companies that are affordable and who haven't made any products I consider "bad": Beyerdynamic; Audio Technica; Electro-Voice. My only complaint about Beyer is their tendency to supply less-than-stellar mic clips with higher-end mics. Easily remedied, of course.

[Phil O]

Dan, I'll read the rest of the posts momentarily, but just wanted to quickly recommend the AudioTechnica ATM450's if you're thinking of a cardioid pair.

I need an inexpensive pair of SDCs for the road and I was just looking at these. Sam Ash has them for $219.

Phil

[mikehalloran]

One thing about youth choir is that the noise floor is not an issue - young voices mask those frequencies quite well.

[mhschmieder]

Phil, I got my ATM450's for $179 each -- maybe less. Audio Technica frequently goes on sale, compared to other brands. Timing is everything with AT mics. Also using the right vendors. I ONLY buy mics from a small selection of four or five vendors that specialize just in recording gear. They offer better prices AND better service.

[Dan Worley]

I do not use ORTF unless I am positive that there is no need for a mono reduction - ever. For example, I avoid it when doing film as it might go over a mono TV speaker.

M/S, on the other hand, collapses to mono perfectly should the need arise.

Interestingly, I made the decision to switch from ORTF to M/S when I used to do youth choir recordings for local schools in California.

A variation I sometimes use is three cardioid mics. Two are back to back facing the sides and the third facing the center. I use AKG C-3000 for the sides. The original ones have switches for cardioid or super cardioid but I found that the cardioid setting worked best. A Shure KSM-32 is my go-to center mic although I will use a C-3000 if sight lines are important due to its size and being black.

For M/S, I use a Groove Tubes FET GT-5000 (long discontinued) - set to figure-8 for the sides and either a KSM-32 or a Røde NT-3 for the center.

Nowdays when I use ORTF, I use it when there is nothing in the center. Drum overheads are good as one uses a kick mic also.

M/S saved a recording once in a San Francisco chamber concert. The church was near the water and that was the night of a local radio station (KFOG) Kaboom! - a 20 minute fireworks show. It went off during the second half and sounded like all hell had broken loose. Since the sounds came from outside the church, they were in phase to both sides. I eliminated the center channel in post and collapsed the sides to mono. The explosions were now out of phase and cancelled while the musicians (none were ever directly centered) came through clearly. One can hear the bombs as the faintest background noise only. OK, the result was mono but it sounded quite good and the composer thought I was a genius for making the explosions go away. I never told him how little work I had to perform on the mix.

Come to think of it, that was the last live recording I did to 1/2 track analog and the first project I ever did in DP, v2.3 I think. I ought to dig that up and post sound clips now that I have told my secret.

I love good ORTF or NOS recordings. I've found they collapse down to stereo just fine (may lose a little something but no big deal for what I'm doing). I like M/S too. I use it here sometimes, but I've never used it in a large hall or big room. Don't you get a lot of the room in the fig 8? I have no idea how bad or how good or what size these rooms are going to be.

I think, though, that you've convinced me to try it, so I'm going to do both ORTF (or NOS, depending on the situation) and M/S and see what I like the best after the fact.

Hey, I appreciate the help. Really. Thanks a lot.

Oh, about DP's MS plug. I've never used it. I just duplicate the fig 8 track, pan one hard left and the other hard right, invert the phase on one of them, and group the faders. And then mix it in with the Mid mic panned center.

With the plug, do you bus the Mid and the Side to a stereo Aux and then apply the MS plug to that Aux and it does the rest?

Thanks!

Dan Worley

[Dan Worley]

Dan, I'll read the rest of the posts momentarily, but just wanted to quickly recommend the AudioTechnica ATM450's if you're thinking of a cardioid pair.

Thanks. Too late. Anyway, I listened to some ORTF recordings done with the MC930's and I was extremely impressed with them, for what they cost. I didn't know about the AT's, though I did read Warren's review on them. I'm happy with what I got (saying that without having used them yet). Would have loved to get some Schoeps or DPA's, but, you know, this is Guerrilla recording.

I appreciate the help, brother.

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[Phil O]

Phil, I got my ATM450's for $179 each -- maybe less.

Ooo, good price. Where have you been shopping?

Phil