Bass DI EQ for Motown Sound

[mikehalloran]

I use a Shure 300

[mhschmieder]

Oh yeah, that was a good mic, but it's discontinued and buying a used ribbon mic makes me nervous.

Well, I looked at a lot of ribbon mics last night and today, and it seems like you can't go wrong with any of them, so it's just a matter of which is best for a particular application and space.

I'm thinking for smaller spaces, one might be better off with one that is designed for closer miking and slightly flatter response (less proximity effect), such as sE Voodoo VR-1, AEA R-92, etc. Choices, choices!

For the O.P. though, one could even consider those new cheap ribbon mics from MXL (several price points, but the R-77 is probably the best bet).

[Phil O]

For low cost ribbons, also check out offerings from Cascade.

Phil

[mhschmieder]

You're talking about the Fathead II, right?

So much controversy about those on GS, and neither Alan Moon (Front End Audio) nor Warren Dent (Zen Pro Audio) carry them, which makes me wonder...

[Phil O]

I used one of the original Fatheads (not mine) this past summer on a guitar cab with great results. I've heard nothing but good things from folks that own them. People also seem to like Cascade as a company. I don't put much faith in discussions at GS.

Phil

[infectiousbeat]

I too am curious about the Fatheads, and it seems only owning one will solve the question for me right now. Going through an interesting phase with all the tech that surrounds us. Started out on the high end (still have some of that stuff) but am now finding that there are cost-effective workarounds for some of that expensive stuff. Definitely have to kiss a few frogs along the way though, and that can suck. Still, the Fathead with the Lundahl looks like it might do the job.
rhl

[mhschmieder]

I just ordered the Lundahl modded version of the ShinyBox 46MXL tonight, after much pondering. I have heard some audio samples of the 46MXC and those have some brashness but incredible presence, depth, and detail. I am guessing that the "L" version will offset the issues I found with the "C" version.

Some of the audio examples I heard were very close to a Coles 4038. This mic is highly recommended for upright bass, bass amp, guitar amp, saxophones, other brass/winds, and as a single (non-stereo-paired) room mic for drums.

I am hoping to have a chance to try it on bass amp right after it arrives, and will report back if I find it appropriate for capturing a vintage 60's sound.

[SixStringGeek]

Do you need to pick a good bass for the recording? I can be of much help there -- especially if on a budget. Are you wondering about DI strategies? That, too, is an area where I can offer both equipment suggestions and usage/routing descriptions. Also, pickup balance and modifications to playing style (mute the notes and play almost staccato-style, as a starting point).

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this stuff. Mostly I'm doing pop/rock so I'm wanting a very *there* bass - thumpy feel good but warm. My taste in bass is probably somewhat colored by my youth - I like the vintage rattle-your-ribcage bass from the 70's funk and I own a classic Wurlitzer 1015 jukebox with a single 15" speaker in it that is crazy warm - I like to feel the bass quite a bit.

Mostly I record with the bass I have - an Epiphone "Powerbass" dual pickup job I won in a songwriting contest in the 80's. I play it direct through a UI Solo 610 and usually pump that through the Rocket and then one of Amplitube's models - usually the SVX. Although often I write the bass part on that bass, then play it again from a keyboard using Trillian because I just get better tone that way and I can clean up my mistakes.

Anyhow, I'd be up for upgrading my bass and signal chain - suggestions for a home recordist on a budget? BTW, I don't even own a bass amp - I'm working entirely in the box these days due to noise constraints.

[mhschmieder]

You don't need to record bass amp very loud at all; unlike guitar amps, where it's all about gain staging and creating the right ratios for the overdrive sound that you want.

In fact, I only record bass amp loud enough to get a good S/N ratio with any white noise or other stuff the mic might pick up in the background.

As for basses, the 70's is not my favourite decade so I have to think harder about that, but I'm going to guess your best path will be to take a DI signal (along with a miked cabinet for roughly 60/40 blend in favour of the DI, if you can), and pump it through AmpliTube's Ampeg presets (such as the B-15 set in particular), as they have quite a few to choose from and they really can get that 70's vibe, or 60's vibe too if that's what you want. It can totally transform the sound of any bass you are recording.

Thus, the main thing is to make sure you have a well-rounded tone going in. I wouldn't think your Epi capable of this, based on the ones I've tried.

A surprisingly thumpy and versatile budget bass is the 30" short scale Gretsch Jet Junior Bass (roughly $200). I considered it but decided the neck wasn't taught enough for my tastes, and figure I can get similar sounds with my new Gretsch Jet Baritone.

My Squier Telecaster Bass ($200) should arrive tomorrow. The audio demos I heard were square-on for 70's reggae, metal, and non-slap-based funk. A very full, dark, thumpy, round tone, without being boomy. That's the key thing when going for that kind of tone.

My favourite bass for vintage sounds at the moment is my Squier Jaguar Bass. It has my preferred PUP combination of Jazz at the Bridge, and Precision at the Neck, with a Jazz neck (which I prefer to Precision necks -- especially as I am used to playing 5-strings and a 5-string P-Bass gets unwieldy). I am able to get vintage tones from 50's through 70's with this bass, and it's a great feeling neck. It records well also, and is extremely versatile tonally.

I am expecting the Squier Vintage Modified P-bass TB (aka Telecaster Bass) to be better at 70's music though. Partly due to the maple fretboard, but primarily due to the single humbucking pickup right at the end of the foreshortened fretboard. This is a P-bass neck, but I tried other Squier maple P-basses at Guitar Center and felt OK with their necks.

I have not yet tried the Jaguar Bass with a plectrum, but it is AMAZING for slapping -- the best I've ever tried (including current high-end Fender J-basses -- but not necessarily those from boutique manufacturers like Low End Bass or Lakland).

For 80's music, I recommend Yamaha's budget BB-415, which has now been replaced by the BB-425. Same pickup configuration as the Jaguar bass. They make a four-string edition as well. It's neck width is somewhere between a J-bass and P-bass. Very well made, and it records well, but it doesn't get that vintage tone and isn't as good for slapping as the Squier Jaguar bass.

Another question that comes up is active vs. passive. I have a sneaky feeling from your "rattling" comment that you might be going for an active bass sound. Maybe even a Rickenbacker (which can be passive or active)? I think some of those funk bands of the 70's played Ricks. People say funk is all about P-bass but plenty of J-bass in there and slapping can work great on either but does sound different on each.

At any rate, it sounds like you'll want to use a tube pre-amp or use emulation of tube pre-amps in your mixing/processing. You get that with AmpliTube's Ampeg plug-in (and some Ampeg presets in AmpliTube itself). Maybe in other guitar modeling plug-ins as well. This will give you your warmth, if the bass itself isn't particularly warm (and most Fender-style basses aren't, in my view). "Warm" and "Dark" are not contradictory, by the way, and are often self-reinforcing.

How about listing some specifics bands/songs that represent what you're going after? I may be off-base from just using your descriptive wording.

[Phil O]

I am expecting the Squier Vintage Modified P-bass TB (aka Telecaster Bass) to be better at 70's music though. Partly due to the maple fretboard, but primarily due to the single humbucking pickup right at the end of the foreshortened fretboard. This is a P-bass neck, but I tried other Squier maple P-basses at Guitar Center and felt OK with their necks.

My son had a Squire P-bass that he played for a while and then donated to my studio. As it came from the factory it was difficult to play, had terrible intonation and didn't sound all that good. I took it to a guitar repairman I know that does really good work and he set it up. Wow, what a great job he did. Several of my clients have used this bass on their recordings with great results. Kind of has that classic P-bass sound (at a fraction of the cost). The catch is, they need some work before you can use them.
The basses, not the clients.

Phil

[mhschmieder]

The Telecaster Bass arrived yesterday, but I took public transit to work so couldn't get it home.

I'm hoping power will be restored by the time I get home tonight, and that I still have a roof (it was sagging and losing rafters when I left for work today after the fire department gave the all-clear once they removed all the dangling wires and cables). If so, I will give a report.

[mhschmieder]

I gave the Telecaster Bass quite a run-through tonight, and am extremely impressed, except for a major intonation problem above the ninth fret. It isn't a warped neck, and could just be an issue of breaking it in, as intonation appeared to stabilize a bit after a couple of hours of playing. I am hoping I can get my guitar technician to look at it ASAP.

After comparing to my other three basses on a number of songs (some of them my own) and styles, I can easily say that THIS is the bass when you want a "rude" sound -- whether metal, punk, funk, rock, or whatever. Even my Jaguar bass, set only to the P-bass pickup, isn't quite this in-your-face and ballsy. This is especially true when using a plectrum.

I think the two main factors are the all-maple one-piece neck/fretboard, and the humbucker pickup right at the edge of the rather short fretboard. In fact, this bass reminds me a LOT of a Musicman Stingray more than a P-bass, and in fact may have been designed to compete (the original 70's Tele-Bass moreso than this Squier edition).

At first, I was thrown by the high action and wide string spacing -- especially going up the neck. But I quickly adjusted, just as when switching to upright after playing bass guitar.

I still enjoy playing rosewood fretboards more and J-bass neck spacing, but the sound is the bottom line, and this bass makes sounds like no other bass I have played in recent years. It only has one pickup and one treble cut knob, yet the finger position while playing it opens up a wide palette of sounds that you might not initially expect, so I consider it a very versatile bass.

It outperformed my Jaguar, Yamaha BB, and Dingwall Afterburner, in terms of authenticity, when playing 60's rock, 60's/70's r&b/funk/slap, reggae, punk, metal, and almost anything involving the plectrum vs. finger-style in addition to what I just mentioned. But I did get annoyed at the upper-neck intonation not being as precise as on my other basses.

The Squier Jaguar bass sounds polite in comparison. The closest I could come to the growl of this Telecaster Bass was with the Dingwall Afterburner -- whether for r&b/funk/slap, punk, 60's rock, or reggae.

In short, I'm now convinced that an all-maple-neck old skool P-bass is the best choice after all for Motown, after previously feeling more inclined towards J-basses (rosewood fretboard) for that role. But then, I was focusing more on 70's and disco when making that judgment.

[SixStringGeek]

Thanks for that amazing analysis and comparisons. I'm traveling for work just now and can't really get time to dig through the music collection for bass sounds I want to emulate but I will get to that as soon as I can.

A friend who plays bass recommended this http://www.amazon.com/Tribute-L-2500-St ... B0002H0BQ4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; as a good 5-string. Curious if you have any experience or opinions on that one.

[mhschmieder]

I have owned G&L basses and guitars in the past. I would never do so again, but this is because they have a very specific sound and only LOOK vintage. They don't sound remotely vintage. And they don't tend to be very versatile. But if it's the sound you want, they're great, and made well. I would find that model an unlikely fit for your current goals.

If you want to go higher-end but keep the 50's/60's/70's vibe, you're better off with one of the Korean versions of the Lakland basses, as they are extremely good value, very authentic in feel and sound, and well made. You can listen to audio snippets at their website. It's the "Skyline" series that would be of interest, and they also pop up on eBay.

[mikehalloran]

Studio bassists through the '70s used sponge rubber mutes for a more percussive effect. It takes a little experimenting to get it right but this is often the "missing ingredient".