NAMM report

[Frodo]

Frodo, I don't quite understand. I have a 1st gen Mac Quad and I run Logic in 64 bit mode an access all of my RAM. I get away with this also using VE PRO 64 bit server. So I'm not sure why one has to boot in 64 bit mode to achieve this....I'm confused.

Yeah, I'm confused, too. I have a 1,1 MacPro 3G and it is definitely not 64-bit mode ready. It's 32-bit only. Needless to say, we hobbits are crying over bowls of cornflakes and beer each morning (each mourning?).

That's part of the thing that annoyed me about Apple. We KNEW that PPCs were going to be exempt (even when Jobs said that 64-bit Carbon frameworks were a reality before he recanted). But then there were Intel MacPros which would be left out of the equation-- but they didn't want to "brag" about that. Basically, if you have a Duo Core Intel MacPro, you are SOL. If you have a Core 2 Duo, you are in the clear.

p.s. I ordered Brass Dimension. I'm looking forward to it. Some people at VI Index are bitching about its sound. Can you post something dry with no processing because I think it sounds good.

Bitching about its sound? Huh? Thhhpp. If the chaps at the VSL forum aren't complaining, I won't. It goes: it's easier to complain about the price and features than it is to confess that it's not easily affordable.

VI Index. Let me at 'em!!!

[Dan Worley]

Yeah, I'm confused, too. I have a 1,1 MacPro 3G and it is definitely not 64-bit mode ready. It's 32-bit only. Needless to say, we hobbits are crying over bowls of cornflakes and beer each morning (each mourning?).

I was right there with you, Frodo (expect I was eating organic banana/almond with almond milk).

When I looked up my serial number, UGH!!!! But what really pissed me off was I found out the Mac I bought as new was six months old at the time I bought it. And then I found out the serial number was already registered with Apple under another name. The Apple support manager was familiar with the name (some guy who buys in mass quantities and sells to vendors, like the one I bought from). But why was it registered? Hmmm? Suspicious? It's turned out good, though. This has been one of the best Macs I've ever owned (and I've owned a lot of them, or at least the company has). Sure as "you know what," it will break down on me now just for saying that.

Whoops! Way OT. Sorry!

c-ya,

Dan Worley

[dcoscina]

I checked my Mac Pro and it too cannot boot in 64 bit BUT I can launch Logic in 64 bit as I do gave the option while I don't on my older core duo MacBook. Now I'm more confused....I can load up all of my 8gb of ram on my Mac Pro.


I ordered Brass Dimension myself and with Spaces this thing is going to own. Killer library. VI Pro kills all other interfaces. Mach 5 is my second favorite interface. I actually don't care for Kontakt but it's a necessary evil at this point.

[Shooshie]

I hope we see some 64bit incarnation of DP this year, preferably in Q1. At the moment, I use Vienna Ensemble PRO as a work around so I'm not too badly off, but it would be better to have it host 64bit plugs directly.

To be honest, I got no inkling of an impression that a 64-bit DP would be talked about for a while, certainly not Q1 this year.

Where my desire may differ from my hopes, I would hope that we hear something by NAMM 2012. Just to be clear, that is only my hope and not official news from MOTU.

For me, it's a mixed blessing of hope because my MacPro won't boot in 64-bit mode. It will be a very expensive transition when the day finally comes.

--- oh, and I've been itching to tell someone who'd appreciate it: I picked up the new VSL Dimension Brass. This volume is brilliant-- recorded and implemented a little differently from other volumes. More on that in another thread.

Frodo, I know we've been through this before, but I can never remember the exact reason why we can't run a 64 bit DP on our Mac Pro's. You and I have the same model, the 2007 Mac Pro. They do run apps in 64 bit. For example, the Preferences panel runs in 64 bit, the Finder is in 64 bit, and most apps or utilities that run in 64 bit will do so on our Mac Pro's, as far as I know.

I remember having this discussion, and conceding that you and I were stuck with 32 bit DP until we buy new Macs. But what was the reason we decided that DP won't run in 64 bit? The only thing that won't run in 64 bit on our Mac Pro's that I know of is the Mach Kernel. Does that mean that extensions won't run in 64? Has anyone tried 64 bit Logic on our machines?

In any case, I'm still saving coins in the cookie jar for the day that we have to switch. There should be about enough in there by that time. (ok, actually it's not a jar. It's a bank account, specifically for things like this, and fed with spare-change deposits, believe it or not. It's like getting a free Mac every few years) But if I could get 64 bit performance out of THIS mac, I might not upgrade for a couple more years.

Shoosh

[FMiguelez]

.

Frodo, regarding MachFive being bundled with DP... we've talked about this in the past a few times.
I totally like and support that idea, not only from a MOTU user POV, but also as someone who loves MOTU as a company and want to see them succeed more.

Regrettably, we saw no sign of them even reading those threads (or even this one). Things are still the same, and all we can do is hope someone at MOTU with decision-making power reads this and realizes this idea of bundling MachFive and DP is the best move for MOTU, its current user base, and MANY potential new users.

Let me ask this from a different angle: Why wouldn't MOTU want to do this? From their perspective, why would they not go ahead with this? What do they know that we don't?
I've been thinking about this, from their POV, and I can honestly find NO caveats or bad things. I genuinely believe this would be a win-win situation for everybody, maybe even more so for MOTU.

Anyway. I bought MachFive 2 not long ago. I will definitely buy MachFive 3 the moment it is released, but I admit my situation is a little different: I don't have libraries that require Kontakt. I have a few that used Gigastudio (which I don't use much these days), but I am like TOTALLY in bed with VSL. That is my most important VI library.
The others I own are independent and have their own dedicated players too (fortunately).
That's why I am actually looking forward to buying MachFive 3, and I have been reluctant to buy Kontakt, even though I REALLY need and want a few libraries that require it. I know I will eventually give up and buy Kontakt too, but like I said, I don't have an investment there YET.

I will buy MF3 knowing and being fully aware that, if for some reason it "doesn't make it", or it creates no important revenue for MOTU because Kontakt is king now, MOTU will probably just kill the app, or take years to come up with updates.
It is a risk I'm willing to take because I already have the app, so it makes sense to upgrade.

But I would LOVE it if they bundled it with DP, as it has been discussed here.
Actually, if we REALLY want this, couldn't we do a little more than just talking about it here? We have very articulate members in this forum... perhaps a letter to the CEO could be written and sent via snail mail directly to his office presenting him with these ideas?

I mean, seriously... we would only have to present him our case in a way that he or she sees why this would benefit MOTU and all of us.
Otherwise, this will remain only a nice wish... I REALLY DOUBT a MOTU exec will get to read this thread... it's far too long, and its title has nothing to do with this... I say let us do something positive about it!

[Shooshie]

I checked my Mac Pro and it too cannot boot in 64 bit BUT I can launch Logic in 64 bit as I do gave the option while I don't on my older core duo MacBook. Now I'm more confused....I can load up all of my 8gb of ram on my Mac Pro.


I ordered Brass Dimension myself and with Spaces this thing is going to own. Killer library. VI Pro kills all other interfaces. Mach 5 is my second favorite interface. I actually don't care for Kontakt but it's a necessary evil at this point.

This has been confusing us since they first started teasing us with 64 bits in Snow Leopard. Those charts show that some Macs will or won't boot the kernel in 64 bit, but running 64 bit apps is a separate column of the chart. This 2.66 GHz Mac Pro Dual Duo will not boot in 64 bits, but it WILL run 64 bit apps.

Still, I've got this vague memory of an entire thread devoted to this very question, and for some reason we decided that it STILL won't run DP in 64 bit mode. Maybe it was because of 64 bit extensions. I don't know. In fact, I'm wondering if any of us will know for sure until MOTU sends us a 64 bit DP, and we try booting it, and seeing if suddenly our 4 GB RAM limit becomes irrelevant. Maybe someone else remembers more clearly whether and why DP will/will not run in 64 bits on these Macs. Sure seems to me that if it can run 64 bit System Preferences, it should be able to run 64 bit extensions.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I checked my Mac Pro and it too cannot boot in 64 bit BUT I can launch Logic in 64 bit as I do gave the option while I don't on my older core duo MacBook. Now I'm more confused....I can load up all of my 8gb of ram on my Mac Pro.


I ordered Brass Dimension myself and with Spaces this thing is going to own. Killer library. VI Pro kills all other interfaces. Mach 5 is my second favorite interface. I actually don't care for Kontakt but it's a necessary evil at this point.

This has been confusing us since they first started teasing us with 64 bits in Snow Leopard. Those charts show that some Macs will or won't boot the kernel in 64 bit, but running 64 bit apps is a separate column of the chart. This 2.66 GHz Mac Pro Dual Duo will not boot in 64 bits, but it WILL run 64 bit apps.

Still, I've got this vague memory of an entire thread devoted to this very question, and for some reason we decided that it STILL won't run DP in 64 bit mode. Maybe it was because of 64 bit extensions. I don't know. In fact, I'm wondering if any of us will know for sure until MOTU sends us a 64 bit DP, and we try booting it, and seeing if suddenly our 4 GB RAM limit becomes irrelevant. Maybe someone else remembers more clearly whether and why DP will/will not run in 64 bits on these Macs. Sure seems to me that if it can run 64 bit System Preferences, it should be able to run 64 bit extensions.

Shooshie

[David Polich]

I have a 2010 MacPro Quadcore. I boot it in 64-bit mode and DP runs
fine. It runs under Rosetta, which you have to download and install.
The first time you run a 32-bit app while in 64-bit mode, you get the
message box saying the app will require Rosetta, and do you want to
download and install it.

That's all there is to it.

Regarding MachFive3, I don't have any desire to use it as I am quite
happy with Kontakt. It looked cool, though. The new upgrade for
Omnisphere looks cool, too. I can do everything the Korg Kronos does
now with what I have. M-Audio's Venom synth sounded good, but again I
have synths that do that already. NI wasn't at the show, which I found
odd.

Overall, the show was ho-hum, at least for me. I think I have
enough of everything anyway.

[Shooshie]

I have a 2010 MacPro Quadcore. I boot it in 64-bit mode and DP runs
fine. It runs under Rosetta, which you have to download and install.
The first time you run a 32-bit app while in 64-bit mode, you get the
message box saying the app will require Rosetta, and do you want to
download and install it.

That's all there is to it.

It's not whether DP will run in 32 bit mode that concerns us. It's whether a 64 bit DP (in the future, of course, since it has not been released) will run in 64 bits on the Mac Pros that we have. They will run 64 bit apps, but they won't boot into the 64 bit kernel.

It's a subject on which there have been a lot of opinions, but few outright undeniable facts.

Shoosh

[GlennO]

It's not whether DP will run in 32 bit mode that concerns us. It's whether a 64 bit DP (in the future, of course, since it has not been released) will run in 64 bits on the Mac Pros that we have. They will run 64 bit apps, but they won't boot into the 64 bit kernel.

It's a subject on which there have been a lot of opinions, but few outright undeniable facts.

They both have "64" in their name, which I suppose leads to this confusion. But, no, there is absolutely no need to boot into a 64 bit kernel to run a 64 bit app. Many Logic users these days run in 64 bit mode and very few of them boot into a 64 bit kernel.

Glenn Olander
Spectrasonics

[Shooshie]

It's not whether DP will run in 32 bit mode that concerns us. It's whether a 64 bit DP (in the future, of course, since it has not been released) will run in 64 bits on the Mac Pros that we have. They will run 64 bit apps, but they won't boot into the 64 bit kernel.

It's a subject on which there have been a lot of opinions, but few outright undeniable facts.

They both have "64" in their name, which I suppose leads to this confusion. But, no, there is absolutely no need to boot into a 64 bit kernel to run a 64 bit app. Many Logic users these days run in 64 bit mode and very few of them boot into a 64 bit kernel.

Glenn Olander
Spectrasonics

Thank you, Glenn. So the 2007 Mac Pro, which will run 64 bit apps, should run anything that is in 64 bits and utilize memory to 64 bit advantage, while running the kernel in 32 bits? It seems logical that they would, but I've seen many arguments on this subject, and people have convinced me that there is something about the 2007 Mac Pro that will be at a disadvantage with DP when it is released in 64 bits; maybe because of the extensions that will be required. Maybe it was that a 32 bit kernel still cannot address more than 4 GB memory for one app.

If you are pretty sure of this, I'd rather take your word, since you've got your hands more deeply in the works than most of us. It would be a great relief to know I don't have to buy a new Mac to get the full benefit of the DP 64-bit release, whenever it should occur.

Apple DID say it was fully 64-bit ready when I bought it. It doesn't seem that there would be any disadvantage in running the kernel in 32 bits, but there's still that memory addressing issue. Does a 32 bit kernel still get locked into the 4 GB limit? Sorry to be persistent in questioning this, but I'd really like to know enough to lay this issue to rest for good. So, it's not just a matter of "will it run?" but "will it run with the full benefit of 64 bit memory addressing?" I'm guessing that's what you mean by running in 64 bit mode, but I'm just removing the last wedge of doubt.

Thanks again,

Shooshie

[frankymax]

Sorry to be persistent in questioning this, but I'd really like to know enough to lay this issue to rest for good. So, it's not just a matter of "will it run?" but "will it run with the full benefit of 64 bit memory addressing?" I'm guessing that's what you mean by running in 64 bit mode, but I'm just removing the last wedge of doubt.

Thanks again,

Shooshie

I also would love to hear the final word on this as I too have a 2007 intel Mac and would like to know if DP will access more than 4 gigs of RAM if and when 64 bit DP comes out.

Thank you.
PS- Glenn, Omnisphere 1.5 looks and sounds FABULOUS- I love Spectrasonics!!

[Frodo]

Unless something happens which makes Rosetta or similar disappear by the time DP goes 64-bit, it's my understanding that all apps will run on all MacPros. Both kernels (32-bit and 64-bit) seem equipped for working with 32-bit and 64-bit apps.

How they manage memory under different circumstances is somewhat of a knotted can of worms to untangle.

Certainly, the most ideal situation would be to run all 64-bit apps and plugins in the 64-bit kernel. However, running a 32-bit app in a 64-bit kernel does not make the app itself 64-bit. From what I've seen, that 32-bit app is still bound to a memory space of less than 4GB, although it will run just fine.

To complicate things, 32-bit versions of PLAY and VSL products cheated the memory limit quite a while ago by adding a separate "server" which allows instances to be run inside the host but additional memory space can be accessed outside the host to cover any overage. I called it the "mock-64 method" for lack of a better term. For those running Duo Core machines it is possible to access much more (if not all) of your installed RAM. For VIs that do not have the special "server", running standalone instances is the way around it. Enough standalones will load up your machine in short order.

Add all of this to the DuoCore vs Core2Duo riddle and it really does get confusing.

[GlennO]

Does a 32 bit kernel still get locked into the 4 GB limit?

The answer to that is "No".

Running 64 bit DAWs and 64 bit plugins is old news on the Mac. Many people do it already and are enjoying the benefits of practically unlimited memory. Those people are almost all running 32 bit kernels.

It's easy to use 64 bit apps on OSX. You don't have install a separate version of the app or plugin like you do on Windows. You don't have to boot your Mac in a special manner. It just works. Even an old G5 Mac with OSX 10.5 runs 64 bit apps and plugins.

Glenn Olander
Spectrasonics

[n2mpujack]

I have a 2010 MacPro Quadcore. I boot it in 64-bit mode and DP runs fine. It runs under Rosetta, which you have to download and install.
The first time you run a 32-bit app while in 64-bit mode, you get the
message box saying the app will require Rosetta, and do you want to
download and install it.

I thought Rosetta was only needed for running code that was developed for the Power PC? I got over the Christmas holidays a Mac Mini and I only needed Rosetta to install the software for my Spyder display calibrator - the calibrator program will run native in SL (32 or 64 bit) without Rosetta. I loaded plenty of other 32 bit s/w on this machine before I loaded the calibrator program whilst having the machine boot into 64 bit kernel via the Terminal command posted on several web sources. Rosetta was not called for.