How are the included virtual instruments that come with 7?

[Shooshie]

I don't care how decent a DAW's bundled VIs are, you'll eventually wind up purchasing some sort of third-party software instruments (as well as third-party audio plugs) to supplant the bundled plug-ins or, in the case of MOTU, the professional versions of the introductory software bundled with DP. Try snagging an all-in-one bundle like Reason or Komplete 7, which will give you the best bang for your buck and cover all the bases in a more high-end fashion.

True, true. There are some bargains on synths that keep popping up in various places, like the Don'tCrack website, where I got Ultra Analog and Tassman 4 for ridiculously low prices. I think UA was $30, and Tassman was $99 -- way less than half price for each of them. You have to check the Don'tCrack.com site often if you want to catch those kinds of prices. They are changing all the time, but if you catch them on the right days, you can sometimes get incredible bargains.
Don'tCrack.com: Ultra Analog
Don'tCrack.com: Tassman 4

And here is the Applied Acoustics Website -- lots of good synths and things here. Of course you'll pay full price most of the time when you get them from the source.

Back to the MOTU bundled instruments, I think the key there is not to ask "is this the only set of instruments I'll ever need?" but to ask "can I get some good use out of these?" The answer to the first question, as with all DAWs' bundled instruments, is NO. But can you get some great usage from what MOTU offers in its bundled synths? Absolutely. I take issue with those who have come here and trashed them as being worthless. In fact, that sentiment just seems bizarre. Anyone who has actually tried to see how much they can get out of these would know that they are ingenious little versions of some great synth genres. If you know a little about synths, you'll find much to work with. Limited? Yes, but not so much that they aren't useful. They'll get you over the hump until you can get some other, better instruments.

Shooshie

[twistedtom]

You do get a lot of bang for the buck with Reason and it runs out side of DP so the memory limit is expanded.

[carrythebanner]

As others have said, the included VIs are not the only instruments you'll ever want in life, but they are usable.

One way to expand their usefulness is to layer them — create a device group and stack two or more instruments to get the desired sound. For example, PolySynth is capable of a decent variety of sounds, but really only one at a time; two PolySynths (or PolySynth plus Proton, etc.) might get you the sound you're looking for.

[Shooshie]

As others have said, the included VIs are not the only instruments you'll ever want in life, but they are usable.

One way to expand their usefulness is to layer them — create a device group and stack two or more instruments to get the desired sound. For example, PolySynth is capable of a decent variety of sounds, but really only one at a time; two PolySynths (or PolySynth plus Proton, etc.) might get you the sound you're looking for.

Exactly. That's what I do. It's not much different than having multiple operators, extra polyphony, etc., in a single synth. I guess if you wanted to get really creative, you could side chain them and get more direct interaction between the layers, but I've never tried anything that involved. (and it would be pretty involved, though possibly made easier with MOTU's Dynamics plugin with built-in side chaining.)

Also you can use automation to vary them a lot. DP has the ability to draw great controller and automation lines, in sine waves, square or sawtooth, and skewed in any direction, plus to make the phase any length you want it -- all in one motion with modifier keys while drawing the curve. There's a post on this on page 2 of the Tips Sheet.

I've used a lot of instances of these, and have never really seen much draw from the CPU, so that means you can do all kinds of layering.

[bongo_x]

As others have said, the included VIs are not the only instruments you'll ever want in life, but they are usable.

One way to expand their usefulness is to layer them — create a device group and stack two or more instruments to get the desired sound. For example, PolySynth is capable of a decent variety of sounds, but really only one at a time; two PolySynths (or PolySynth plus Proton, etc.) might get you the sound you're looking for.

Exactly. That's what I do. It's not much different than having multiple operators, extra polyphony, etc., in a single synth. I guess if you wanted to get really creative, you could side chain them and get more direct interaction between the layers, but I've never tried anything that involved. (and it would be pretty involved, though possibly made easier with MOTU's Dynamics plugin with built-in side chaining.)

Also you can use automation to vary them a lot. DP has the ability to draw great controller and automation lines, in sine waves, square or sawtooth, and skewed in any direction, plus to make the phase any length you want it -- all in one motion with modifier keys while drawing the curve. There's a post on this on page 2 of the Tips Sheet.

I've used a lot of instances of these, and have never really seen much draw from the CPU, so that means you can do all kinds of layering.

Same here. I use more than one synth most of the time, no matter what they are, and usually external effects and even hardware on them. I think a lot of people want a synth to be completely self contained, the ones in DP are more like good building blocks. Using them that way they sound very good.

bb

[Topo]

I don't care how decent a DAW's bundled VIs are, you'll eventually wind up purchasing some sort of third-party software instruments---------------------Try snagging an all-in-one bundle like Reason or Komplete 7, which will give you the best bang for your buck and cover all the bases in a more high-end fashion.

Yeah...I'm installing ivory 2 right now. I think omnisphere is what I need next, for all those moody interesting patches. Drums are an issue though. The loops in logic have been useful...are there any with DP7?

[corbo-billy]

The loops in logic have been useful...are there any with DP7?

No because MOTU lets you choose your products !

[Armageddon]

True, true. There are some bargains on synths that keep popping up in various places, like the Don'tCrack website, where I got Ultra Analog and Tassman 4 for ridiculously low prices. I think UA was $30, and Tassman was $99 -- way less than half price for each of them. You have to check the Don'tCrack.com site often if you want to catch those kinds of prices. They are changing all the time, but if you catch them on the right days, you can sometimes get incredible bargains.

The AAS stuff is definitely a decent buy, too, though I'm not a huge fan of Strum/Strum Electric. Ultra Analog and Tassman are great soft-synths, and String Studio has a few great sounds, as well. I also dug Lounge Lizard until I wound up snagging Electrik Piano for Kontakt (slightly more realistic-sounding), but an AAS bundle is a good buy all around. There's also IKMultimedia's Total Workstation 2 bundle (there's a second bundle that includes all their VIs and audio plugs, great starter set!), but that's all sample-based. I believe Arturia also has a 10th Anniversary bundle of all their VIs.

Back to the MOTU bundled instruments, I think the key there is not to ask "is this the only set of instruments I'll ever need?" but to ask "can I get some good use out of these?" The answer to the first question, as with all DAWs' bundled instruments, is NO. But can you get some great usage from what MOTU offers in its bundled synths? Absolutely. I take issue with those who have come here and trashed them as being worthless. In fact, that sentiment just seems bizarre. Anyone who has actually tried to see how much they can get out of these would know that they are ingenious little versions of some great synth genres. If you know a little about synths, you'll find much to work with. Limited? Yes, but not so much that they aren't useful. They'll get you over the hump until you can get some other, better instruments.

I think that was the point I was trying to make: if these are your first VIs, it's a great way to get started. None of the bundled VIs are so complicated that they'll overwhelm a novice user, and you'll eventually get to the point where you go "Well, I need a more sophisticated sampler" or "I need something with a 16-step arpeggiator/sequencer" and be better-experienced when you get them. I think anyone who's serious about producing music with VIs is going to have to plan on purchasing third-party instruments as part of the package, but again, that's true of any DAW. You can definitely make music with what you get with DP, though, and you even get stuff like Bassline, which is so specialized and old-school funky that you can (and are easily tempted to) use it on a wide variety of music.

Since it appears MOTU has finally ironed out the transitional bugs in DP, maybe they'll be able to focus on peripheral stuff, like plugs and VIs, in a future update or version. It will be interesting to see where they go.

[Armageddon]

Yeah...I'm installing ivory 2 right now. I think omnisphere is what I need next, for all those moody interesting patches. Drums are an issue though. The loops in logic have been useful...are there any with DP7?

I would strongly recommend ToonTrack's EZDrummer, which, according to the new Sweetwater catalog, is going for about $45. It sounds awesome, has a lot of mixing and routing options and comes with a wide variety of MIDI loops (and the ability to import your own). Shortly after buying EZDrummer, I ditched my hardware drum machine for time-keeping and never looked back; I just drag loops out of the EZDrummer interface onto a DP looped MIDI track and I'm rock-solid. You can also pick up Expansion Packs, which will give you new kits and more MIDI loops for it, for super-cheap. You don't quite get the fidelity of Ocean Way Drums or BFD (or even ToonTrack's Superior Drummer, which only costs about $150), but I've been using EZDrummer for all my drum sounds and have never been happier with my tracks.

[Topo]

I would strongly recommend ToonTrack's EZDrummer, which, according to the new Sweetwater catalog, is going for about $45. ..............

Great...I *will* check that out.

[mhschmieder]

I've gotten so used to the VI's crashing on my old G4 iMac that I forgot they were there!

This is a good reminder to try them out again now that I have a MacPro.

That also goes for ProVerb, as it may have some useful spaces vs. depending solely on what Altiverb has to offer (although I also forgot that I can now use VSL's Convolution reverb, which is Intel-only and didn't show up in my drop-list on the G4 iMac).

Those are plug-in effects though; as far as VI's are concerned, the Roland emu is of most interest, as it is a nice and direct interface for getting into those sounds vs. some of the more elaborate VI's.

Like Shooshie said, these are "free" and may not compare well to some higher-end soft synths, but that doesn't mean they are useless, have bad presets, or aren't the right ticket for that odd project that comes along now and then.

They're also great learning tools for people new to synthesis (and/or sampling). I think this is an oft-overlooked trait of some of the MAS plug-ins that MOTU bundles with DP, that they aren't just placeholders for newbies but also carefully designed interfaces that help you grow.

[Frodo]

I've gotten so used to the VI's crashing on my old G4 iMac that I forgot they were there!

Many were so caught up in AUs that MAS instruments were very easily overlooked. Of all the things I've had go wrong, I've never had DP crash with MAS instruments running.

[kenrinc]

I was just going through the VIs in DP7 this week as I too had been away for awhile. I love BassLine. That is without a doubt, cool. Modulo is speaking to me but I haven't worked with it enough yet.

It was noted that there is a difference in marketing when comparing to something like Logic (the obvious competition) which I totally agree. Logic offers a huge amount of presets as a basis to get started and they are pretty "glossed over", as in, "built to impress". And they have the advantage that when you select a preset you get the plugin chains to go with them in the channel strip. You can learn a lot by watching how these chains are setup in Logic. You can do the same in DP you just have to do it yourself.

I agree that really the only thing separating the two is that MOTU seems to really downplay the included VIs in DP, or at least that's what I perceive. $.02

Ken-