Cockos, Reaper, and Justin Frankel

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Phil O
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by Phil O »

James Steele wrote:In the particular situation of a band, you're creating a fan base that is being conditioned to expect your music for free. You may discover this is an illusory fan base that will tell you how wonderful you are until the day comes that you ask them to pay money to come see you or shell out money to purchase a CD or download an album on iTunes. But sooner or later you must monetize the fan base or make sure you're really happy with your day job that's paying the bills.
A long time ago when I was starting my own business, a fellow who was quite successful in his own business gave me some good advice. He said, "First, don't be greedy. Set your prices fairly without short-changing yourself or gouging your clients. Second, once you've established what your product is worth, be proud of your prices." It was good advice.

BTW, I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but I'm just curious. Does Reaper qualify for the DP crossgrade price? :roll:

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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by n2mpujack »

Phil O wrote:
BTW, I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, but I'm just curious. Does R••••• qualify for the DP crossgrade price? :roll:

Phil
I remember somebody here (not in this thread) speculated that it would. I do have a parallel question: what programs DO qualify for the crossgrade and what does one have to provide to get the crossgrade? I don't recall seeing anything on MOTU's site that says one way or the other. I have DP6 anyways - just askin' for curiosity's sake.
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by BobK »

After reading this thread, I typed 'Cockos Reaper' in the search box in Safari, and the auto-fill coughed up a bunch of common search terms. Third in the list was 'Cockos Reaper torrent'. So, if I'm interpreting this correctly, despite Cockos' 'honor system' policy, many people want to download Reaper from a torrent site - a pirated copy of Reaper! Go figure. I guess free is just not cheap enough. :shake:


EDIT: I noticed that when version 4 is released, the price will go up to $225/$60. But still none of that 'intrusive' copy protection.

I wonder if the name is implying that this DAW is trying to kill the competition. :wink:
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by marko »

Wow........

Talk about something that gets me going.

I have been making my living from music and NOTHING but music since 1989. Mostly as a player with the studio end of it creeping up in the last 10 years. I have never even copied a CD (I am constantly mocked for my stand on this) much less used software that I didn't pay for and register.

I know this:

"Sharing" music is stealing. Plain and simple. And should be prosecuted as such.

As far as free DAW software. Well, personally, I think it's an abomination.

As much as I use it, I believe that MIDI, and to a marginally lesser extent, inexpensive DAW hardware/software have done more to damage the arts culture in this country than anything in the last century.

I think that a certain amount of sacrifice is necessary in order for things to have any meaning at all, much less maintain ANY level of quality. I couldn't go down to the local Home Depot and expect them to give me all of the tools I would need to declare myself a carpenter. And if that WERE the case, and I were to go about building homes, with no experience or knowledge of my craft, it would be a short-lived career. Probably with lawsuits to follow due to the death and injury my shoddy structures had inflicted on others.

It is not only possible, however, it is the nature of the music business today for any random jackass to pick up a laptop, ProTools LE, and voila!!!! We have ourselves a producer or, even worse, an "artist".

Never mind that what is being produced is complete and utter dog feces.

Look cool, don't shave, wear some thrift shop clothes to go along with your petulant attitude, and you are the next flavor of the month. All the while the craft of songwriting, compostion, music theory, and competent engineering are diluted more and more each day until we are at the point where, in EVERY restaurant you frequent, you are subjected to the crunchy, distorted, high-end swirl of low-res mp3 music services.

All in the name of progress.

Thanks. I'd rather have a dry, cactus enema.

I have sacrificed my life, untold tens of thousands of dollars in both education and equipment in order to become proficient at something and it is continually rendered marginal by the mindset that not only should the MUSIC be free, but the tools to make it as well!?!?!?!?!??

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

When James wrote .
Frankly, we're reaping what we've sewn by raising a generation of entitled narcissists.
I almost threw my hands up in exultant agreement.

Unfortunately, I was sitting on the toilet at the time, reading this thread on my phone, and the prospect of my phone flying out of my hands and landing God knows where enabled me to restrain myself.

Nothing is free. Nor should it be. There is a lot to be said for Rites of Passage. They are non-existent in our society now, which is why we have not one, but two generations of "entitled narcissists" (thank you, James). The lack of any Rites of Passage in music and the music business is why people are winning Grammy awards who are incapable of even singing in tune.

Just because you can do a thing, doesn't mean you should. And if you have to pay money to do it, well....... perhaps you might think twice about whether or not it's really worth it.

The airwaves, both radio and television are filled to overflowing, like an overused, construction site outhouse, with product that is the result of "free" software, and yet, no one complains. Since music is incapable of actually inflicting any real harm, who cares, right?

Yet, when the craft is forgotten and we have literally become like "Idiocracy", it will be too late.

I don't believe it is possible to discuss this in the abstract. It affects me every day and makes my life far more difficult from a professional standpoint. If any of those "history makers" had written that code to slowly drain money from banks, they would all be cooling their heels in the nearest gray bar hotel, not using their millions to sip fruity drinks while they write MORE software that continues to rape and pillage the artistic landscape.

I applaud the fact the the names of these particular offenders cannot even be mentioned here. Even if this stand is taken solely in some dark, forgotten corner of the internet, I will saddle my horse, and ride forth in defense of it on principle alone.


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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by Spikey Horse »

OK, here's my 2 c****

OK, this is now getting ridiculous - all I did was type c**** ...... as in 'dollars and c****'

:shake:
(OK being serious now)

I can't seem to pin myself down to a fixed, generalized viewpoint which I feel is 'correct' - because I don't feel there can be a viewpoint or solution which can be applied universally.... which is what a lot of these kinds of discussions seem to end up searching for, in vein.

So instead I'll just go off on a massive philosophical tangental waffle ride..... jump onboard if you want. :dance: ...... otherwise skip to next post, no offense taken!

Whenever there is real change there is much upset. When the boat rocks stuff gets broken. Some of it is fair and justified some of it isn't. And on the subject of 'fairness' I also don't think we should use the past as a yard stick for fairness either just because it was stable and we were comfortable and safe with the status quo. Strictly speaking the old system (I mean traditional business models before the internet and other new technologies began this whole paradigm shift) was to a greater or lesser extent just as 'unfair' as today - David generally never stood a chance against Goliath ........... but it was far more stable and fairly static and in many ways more comfortable. Everyone knew the rules. And that stability allowed everyone to get settled in their own area of expertise and that enabled everyone to feel secure and safe and learn a craft and make a living at it. I think when you break it down it is often the threat to our security/ safety (and that of those around us who we rely on) which is the main issue that concerns us - it's about practical stuff - even if we discuss it as if it were intellectual/ ethical. OK so it's usually a mixture of both really.

The point I'm trying to make is that **increased freedom** (like an encounter with the truth) can be absolutely devastating...... meaning it can shake up or even destroy all that we relied on, that comfortable and 'fair' status quo.

These days we're all encouraged to 'embrace the future' and to worship, celebrate and above all have absolute faith in 'progress' as the solution to everything - even to all the problems that 'progress' has itself created. But what's commonly known as 'progress' actually amounts to no more than technological advances plotted against time -hardly something to put faith into! Sure, a 'Star Trek' technology based utopia is waiting for us at the end of the rainbow - but that is exactly where it will always remain. Yet alongside this blind faith in 'progress' we're also being heavily encouraged to stay locked into 'old paradigm' thinking regarding the implementation of ever more extreme rules, regulations, laws etc. This to me makes no sense at all - it's totally contradictory. There's can be no such thing as a dystopian utopia ... and don't believe anyone who tries to convince you otherwise!

Therefore IMHO the only viable solutions (applies to all areas of life) to the massive changes we see taking place will come from our own equally (at the very least) original and imaginative paradigm shifted levels of thinking, attitudes and behaviour. If you drive across America you can use a variety of vehicles but once you hit the Pacific Ocean you need to totally change your thinking from 'wheel based' vehicles to 'hull based' vehicles - end of story. Well, we've hit the Pacific folks. The solution(s) to the challenges thrown up by technology will also have to come from somewhere entirely new and not by tweaking (or amplifying) old concepts and behaviours.

A lot of people kind of instinctively see how outdated a lot of the 'old paradigm' thinking is - how it was based on a hierarchy model based on centralized power and control that is now crumbling. But IMHO this new social/ business/ intellectual/ cultural anarchy (which is what it is) desperately needs something the old rigid system never really needed in order to function.

What this new system requires in order to work is: personal responsibility.

That is why I applaud James' stance (and the fact he is taking a stance) not so much because I agree with him (or disagree with him for that matter) but because thinking about this kind of stuff seriously and acting from the position of personal responsibility has to be part of this whole revolution/ solution/ paradigm shift. Whether we like it/ realise it or not we are actually all gaining enormous power as individuals - the evidence for this is that how we think/ behave has a huge impact on the world around us in a way it couldn't have even a few short years ago when we were never anything more than mere consumers and/ or tiny cogs in a machine that was far bigger than we were.

Today, increasingly, we're more than just consumers - we are participants - (even if most of us are still behaving like consumers) therefore choosing to support this, support that, copy this, buy that, spread this information, create this software, join this community, spread this idea ..... all of these things have very real and immediate consequences! If that isn't the evidence of our increased power and the need for responsibility in directing that power then tell me what else is it?

We are used to thinking of responsibility in terms of 'ethics' - doing the right thing - but today it is becoming far more than 'just' ethics (not that I'm downplaying the importance of good ethics!) - it is also now increasingly about POWER too. How we ordinary plebs CHOOSE to behave today really does increasingly have the POWER to influence and even create the world we get back in return.

In that sense I feel that (part of) the paradigm shift is realizing that we even have to stop thinking in terms of being 'obedient' because that's 'the law' or whatever ... obedience is NOT responsibility. Instead we need to think (I mean as a society) in terms of being truly responsible - as a consequence/ necessity of having personal power/ personal freedom. Responsibility and freedom go hand in hand and each enhances the other. An attitude and true understanding of responsibility in this sense goes way, way, WAY beyond mere obedience.

Obedience is about respecting the authority and power of others (like 'mummy and daddy' who provided all our needs so we should be obey them as a consequence) - and mummy and daddy will tell us this is being 'responsible' - it is not, it is being obedient.

Obedience is limitation - hardly in keeping with today's mood of unprecedented change and expansion in all areas of human civilization is it?! No one is interested in being obedient and for good reason - it's now a completely out dated motivation.... even if most people haven't quite figured out what exactly is the new motivation!

Personable responsibility on the other hand is all about engaging with freedom, power, expansion, possibilities, taking on new concepts and far more in step with the fast pace of change and empowerment we see all around us. It cannot be stressed enough how the obedient/ dutiful attitude is simply not good enough (intelligent enough) to motivate people in these times. We need to drop it and evolve beyond it. Just like we evolved beyond human slavery, women as inferior etc which were once accepted as normal, unchangeable attitudes and behaviour.

Increased power and freedom will never, ever make people more obedient - it will make them LESS obedient! And rightly so! And so any system relying on obedience at its core is doomed to fail ... and, again, rightly so!

We need to think in the age we are in - it is an age of personal freedom and expansion of technology, ideas, etc Those who want to resist this inevitable evolution will try and impose more (outside) control and enforce obedience. Those who see where we really are will look instead towards a new fresh mood of personal responsibility as a compliment to our personal freedom/ empowerment. This widening difference in approaches applies as perfectly to the music/ recording industry as it does to the wider world. You can see this split in everything that is going on today!

The thing is: people alive today (in the Western world anyway) haven't really had a true taste of proper responsibility/ power - because the western world is far more controlled by 'authority' than anywhere else on the planet. That is why they are still thinking in terms of obedience (for instance with copy protection) which is why when they have the freedom to be disobedient (piracy etc) they take it! In this sense a culture of obedience actually leads to irresponsibility! (ie naughty children)

So now that thanks to technology (internet, software etc etc) we are increasingly able to do everything ourselves (or amongst ourselves) personal responsibility is becoming more about us all choosing to create the kind of industries / culture/ society that we want for ourselves ..... for instance by supporting the aspects of industries / culture/ society that we value voluntarily (when we could just as easily get away with not supporting it, not valuing it and making use of free and usually second rate alternatives). It is a testament to the crazy corporate world (and it's associated notions of obedience) that we have been living in for so long that the idea of voluntarily (as opposed to reluctantly) and actively supporting our own industry/ culture / future (!) seems like such a radical (and quite frankly ridiculous) idea.

The point I am making is this: It really doesn't matter what rules, regulations, copy protection systems etc are or are not in place - until we relearn how to value stuff again no one will be particularly willing to support it. The way we will learn to value stuff again is to take back control of it and learn about the consequences of personal responsibility (or lack thereof) for ourselves - which is exactly what we are all now in a position to do, and what is starting to happen. It is really all about just growing up! Being consumers has given us all such a childish/ teenage like attitude.... hence the 'wild party' that is piracy and the whole irresponsible attitude in culture generally ...but eventually even teenagers get bored of drinking neat vodka, setting fire to their parents' back garden and filling the swimming pool with jelly ... eventually irresponsibility (and the mess it produces) gets very, very boring.....

-o-

Moving on.... as much as I love DP I think it is just inevitable that the brand of DAW we use will become increasingly irrelevant - just as the way our electricity is generated is something we don't worry about these days (OK so energy production is maybe not such very good analogy, but you see what I'm getting at).

What I mean is that the concept of defending that which we rely on (for instance DP) - defending its 'right' to exist is really a 'legacy concept' (to coin a new phrase!) from the deeply hierarchical old school business model. It is 'king of the castle' mentality. It's no longer appropriate. I don't mean we shouldn't care what happens to DP, but we need to be thinking more in terms of 'mutually championing/ supporting/ protecting' what we value and not merely trying to defend what we (seek to) own/ control (there's too many people with a hand on the steering wheel now for the second model to work).

And this leads back again to personal responsibility and it requires that we (the general public) all do something truly revolutionary: think about stuff and actually have an opinion about what we really want, what direction we want the industry/ culture/ the world to go in etc. For example: do we want the music industry (and culture in general) to go (further) down the drain or get more interesting again? These are revolutionary questions to ask because to even ask them seriously is to assume the power to answer them! (BTW sorry if this is all getting too Yoda-ish!)

Because, given that we all have access to the technology and the tools and means of communication it really is up to us (if enough of us decide to assume that responsibility). There is absolutely no reason why we have to all take responsibility - but if we don't then someone else will be in calling all the shots.

There was a time when questioning the direction we want things to go in would have been irrelevant - because we had no control, we all knew our place and all had our niche (it was unfair, in a literal sense, but it was stable and secure). And I know many would argue that we ('the people'!) have less control now than ever before. I do get that, I really do - but I think that's just an old out of date idea that just hasn't been properly challenged yet. Ideas are powerful things! It cuts both ways.

Like the 6 billion dollar man - "we have the technology" .... and when this outdated idea is challenged it will fall like Goliath.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that because now that any old David can compete with any Goliaths out there that we are heading towards a world filled with Davids and without any Goliaths.... and as a consequence of this our basic attitudes (whether we are making music, recording music, making software etc) have to change to reflect this new situation.

Culturally, socially and in terms of business it's a bit like we are all changing from being employee status to being self employed status. When you are a corporate employee you can steal all the stationary you like ..... this attitude doesn't work so well when you are self employed! Again it's all about figuring out the difference between mere obedience and actual responsibility.

It's corporations that are clinging on desperately (I mean look at them - it's pathetic! LOL) ...... the rest of us have got to learn to let go a little ... free your mind .... only those who can go with the flow will survive / prosper ............ BUT to go with the flow these days means to radically change our attitudes, behaviours, outlooks, mindsets ....

To sit back and watch what happens and expect the future to deliver while clinging to old ways is NOT going with the flow ....

The potential problems / solutions surrounding software competition, copyright and digital information etc are numerous and will keep on coming (as in everything else in life) .... that is why our mindsets, attitudes, philosophy, intelligence, critical thought, imagination and sense of personal (and collective) responsibility (as a recognition of our personal and collective power!) are soooooooo crucial right now - more so now than ever before. This may all seem irrelevant or fanciful - and in fact this is exactly the problem, because the solutions have come from a more evolved, 'higher' perspective (and be implemented with a mood of voluntarism) because we are all becoming more responsible/ powerful ... whether we like it or not!

If we can get that attitude right, figure out our priorities then the inevitable 'rocky boat ride through the choppy seas of rapid technological change' will at least be heading in roughly the right direction - which is all that matters... seriously that's the only thing that really matters!
Last edited by Spikey Horse on Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by mess »

If the price and CP is the big issue, what about when Apple dropped the retail price of Logic to $500, bundled in ALL the content that they EVER produced for it and flat out dropped the dongle? Apple's serial number scheme is even more easily circumvented than DP's!

and on that note...
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C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by James Steele »

At least they do have some serial number protection. I was critical of Logic's price drop when it happened. Apple has had no need to make a dime from Logic ever since the iPod appeared on the scene. It's quite the odd predicament for DAW developers having to be in competition with the company that makes the hardware their DAW runs on.
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by NazRat »

mess wrote:If the price and CP is the big issue, what about when Apple dropped the retail price of Logic to $500, bundled in ALL the content that they EVER produced for it and flat out dropped the dongle? Apple's serial number scheme is even more easily circumvented than DP's!
What . . . you have to buy an Apple computer to run the software. Talk about the ultimate dongle. That was a slap to all Apple developers. They give away Garage Band with a new machine purchase and charge very little for the iLife package if you're not buying hardware. GB has evolved into a very capable DAW, though most preceive it as a toy. No one's complaining about that.
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by James Steele »

Kubi wrote:I obviously disagree quite a bit, and you can probably guess how I personally believe such a policy makes this forum appear... but your place, your call.
Membership deleted per your request. :roll:

Posted to clarify the reason for change in status lest I be accused yet again of precipitously booting someone. Anybody who would care to similarly fall on their sword or attain martyrdom over board policy need only similarly PM me and I'll be happy to oblige. :boohoo:
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by James Steele »

NazRat wrote:What . . . you have to buy an Apple computer to run the software. Talk about the ultimate dongle. That was a slap to all Apple developers. They give away Garage Band with a new machine purchase and charge very little for the iLife package if you're not buying hardware. GB has evolved into a very capable DAW, though most preceive it as a toy. No one's complaining about that.
I'm not sure why no monthly Garage Band techniques feature in SOS. :lol: It must not have the numbers or didn't place highly enough in SOS's sacred user poll or you could bet your bottom Euro it would exist. Probably the toy perception as you stated. Reaper suffered from the same perception, and SOS coverage is going a long way to change that. Another difference is Apple makes no pretense of charging for it do they? Not sure. Do you even need a serial number to install GB?
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by Michael Canavan »

James Steele wrote: I'm not sure why no monthly Garage Band techniques feature in SOS. :lol: It must not have the numbers or didn't place highly enough in SOS's sacred user poll or you could bet your bottom Euro it would exist. Probably the toy perception as you stated. Reaper suffered from the same perception, and SOS coverage is going a long way to change that. Another difference is Apple makes no pretense of charging for it do they? Not sure. Do you even need a serial number to install GB?
Not in SOS, but I have seen features on using Garage Band in music rags. No, it's not free, you either get it with iLife, or with a new computer, as far as I know the only way to get the upgrades is to purchase iLife. On that note OSX itself doesn't have any real copy protection, you have a disk, it installs. DPs CP isn't that great either, not a big deal as likelihood of being a pirate past 20yo is far less on Mac than PC, not my bias, just stats from companies that eventually dropped PC support.

Seriously, I'm still at a loss as to why Reaper is targeted as the prime gripe of this forum?
This is business 101. You said it yourself the Stillwell guys are the main coders in that which cannot be named, they make a concerted effort to maintain compatibility with DP, and sell half price Roper versions of their plug ins. It's a good bet that a large amount of users have bought those discount Roper only plug ins, as they're pretty good quality plugs, this is a viable market approach. Again Ableton Live has a 30 day demo and only moderate limitations on the demo when that runs out, (you can't save songs, but you can save audio from songs). A guy came on their forum and asked them if he was doing something illegal by recording parts of his new release with the demo, he had every intention of buying the product with the first $400 he made off of selling his music. They applauded his ingenuity and told him to let them know when he could afford it. Other times people have come on their forums and admitted that they got hooked by a [k]racked version, and were now turning into legit users. All I'm saying here is the line in the sand is drawn with them of course, but they decided that new customers were more important than making examples of common thieves.

The original topic wasn't whether people agreed with the business dealings of these companies but what MOTU might do about it? Since Reaper isn't in fact breaking any laws, just like Apple wasn't when they bought Logic and bundled everything and it's mother in with it. Shareware has been around forever, since the beginning of computers really. IMO the SOS thing is what really tipped you off, Reaper has been in fact around for at least 4 years now.
PS no "shrug" smiley?
PSS LOL @ banning variations of Reaper! I would just ban everything that starts with an R!
(one of the reasons I don't moderate a forum! :lol: )
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by Dan Worley »

Wow, bummer. I always appreciated Kubi's experience and talent and contributions to this forum. This sucks! Why not delete the entire thread and get it over with before more damage is done?

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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by James Steele »

Michael Canavan wrote:PSS LOL @ banning variations of R•••••! I would just ban everything that starts with an R!
(one of the reasons I don't moderate a forum! :lol: )
No doubt you wouldn't want to moderate a forum because you obviously don't get it. I asked for no variations on the Reaper name and "cute spellings" to get around it and you've done it now twice. Do not do it again. I'm wasting my time editing your post.
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by James Steele »

Dan Worley wrote:Wow, bummer. I always appreciated Kubi's experience and talent and contributions to this forum. This sucks! Why not delete the entire thread and get it over with before more damage is done?

Dan Worley
People have a choice themselves of whether to do damage or not. It was Kubi's choice. I'm setting the board policy on this, and that's how it is. People can choose to either deal with it or choose to publicly harangue me over it. If you choose the latter, I may delete the post. If you get your feelings hurt because I tell you a fact: that I don't care what YOUR particular personal point of view is and how YOU think it makes this forum look, you're free to get huffy about it. I honestly don't care who somebody is, or what they've done or not done, I'm not obligated to sit through your scolding.

Seriously... If somebody doesn't like it... I've said time and time again: phpBB.com is the site where you can download this board software for free. Get some server space, install it, start an alternate site and devote your time to it and you can make the rules.
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Shooshie
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Re: C•••••, R•••••, and Justin Frankel

Post by Shooshie »

Please, reinstate Kubi. He can just avoid the place if he wants to, but this stupid thread was NEVER intended to divide the forum or cause conflict. Pardon my naivete in believing that I could pull off a discussion about something that's kind of subtle without it turning into a brawl about exactly what I did NOT post about. But I do not want to have Kubi's deletion on my conscience, and that's exactly what has happened. He is one of my favorite people in this forum, and has been most helpful.

Again, I vote for locking up this thread, and I most certainly will avoid controversy in the future, providing that I can predict what is going to be controversial. I actually thought that what I was posting was interesting and would be perceived so, if we just looked at it for what it is instead of bringing in our PERCEIVED associations with things we all don't like.

Further, I resent what someone said earlier: "It's a shame this thread even got started - I mean - what was the point other than to stir up controversy on a subject that is anathema here?" That is so wrong-headed to the point of willful ignorance that I don't know where to start, so I'll leave it at that.

For goodness sakes, lock up this thread before someone else asks to be deleted.

And please put Kubi back on the roles. Nobody should be deleted during a heated discussion for any reasons except bullying, racism, etc. In other words, for not being able to control their impulses. Kubi is as level-headed as they come, but anyone can lash out and say "delete my account" when they're mad. Give him time to cool off and think about it. This place would not be the same without our more knowledgeable posters, and he is among the best of us.

Sorry to break my promised silence, but this went too far.
James Steele wrote:People have a choice themselves of whether to do damage or not. It was Kubi's choice. I'm setting the board policy on this, and that's how it is. People can choose to either deal with it or choose to publicly harangue me over it. If you choose the latter, I may delete the post. If you get your feelings hurt because I tell you a fact: that I don't care what YOUR particular personal point of view is and how YOU think it makes this forum look, you're free to get huffy about it. I honestly don't care who somebody is, or what they've done or not done, I'm not obligated to sit through your scolding.

Seriously... If somebody doesn't like it... I've said time and time again: phpBB.com is the site where you can download this board software for free. Get some server space, install it, start an alternate site and devote your time to it and you can make the rules.
That doesn't make it ok to delete Kubi, even if he asked you to during a heated discussion. For goodness sakes, let him cool down. Then if he wants to be deleted, by all means let him have what he wants. We all get hot under the collar and say things we regret. But what you've created here is a gathering place of people with opinions. When opinions clash, people say things. We're people, not saints.

My apologies to all for starting this thread. If I had predicted the outcome -- and I did not expect it to become this way, regardless of whether anyone thinks I "should have" -- I would certainly not have posted it. I just thought we were grown up enough to discuss this. I was wrong.

Shooshie
Last edited by Shooshie on Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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