I don't really know how to phrase what I'm trying to explain, so please bear with me, and pardon my ignorance.
I'm using an 828mk3 into Adobe Audition 3, utilizing the MOTU ASIO drivers.
For simplicity's sake, I am running a single mic through Mic-1. EQ and reverb done through CueMix, no external effects.
After EQing and adding reverb to taste, monitoring through CueMix, I've got the channel set exactly as I'd like.
However, when recording, there is no reverb whatsoever. EQ comes through, but verb does not. Even without reverb, though, the signal is noticeably different. I can't really put my finger on it, but on playback of the recorded track, everything sounds less "rich." The difference is fairly subtle, but definitely noticeable.
The track input is set to Mic-Guitar 1 (mono), so I'm guessing it's bypassing some processing from the unit? However, there is no other input available that alleviates this issue.
How can I get it to record exactly as I'm hearing through the main-outs (front panel jack into cans)? Surely I don't have to send the main out back into the unit and record the return. I have to be missing something simple, here.
Routing issue?: Main outs and recorded track different
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Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. with Windows
Discussion related to installation, configuration and use of MOTU hardware such as MIDI interfaces, audio interfaces, etc. with Windows
Re: Routing issue?: Main outs and recorded track different
Where are you adjusting things like EQ, reverb, compression, levels, etc? Are you doing this from the Output window? If so, those settings reflect only what's going out of your output jacks -- not what you're recording. To better understand how the MOTU works, let me try and explain it using "normal" hardware mixers.
Let's say you have an 8 input mixer. Those 8 inputs can optionally be configured as 4 stereo inputs, or any combination thereof. By default, the first two inputs (which are the only two that have both XLR and 1/4" jacks) are configured as two mono inputs labeled "Analog 1" and "Analog 2". The remaining 6 inputs, which have only 1/4 jacks, are configured as stereo pairs, and are labeled "Analog 3 - 4", "Analog 5 - 6". and "Analog 7 - 8".
Every input has its own reverb send knob, an elaborate EQ section (many knobs and choices of filters, many of which can be applied simultaneously), its own compressor/limiter, input trim knob, volume fader, and phase switch. Each input also has a stereo/mono toggle switch. For example when you set Analog 3's switch to stereo, it automatially pairs up with Analog 4 to become a stereo input called "Analog 3 - 4". (And note these are for the two 1/4" In jacks labeled 3 and 4 on the back of the MOTU). It cannot be paired with any other input. 3 and 4 are hardwired to pair up together. (So are Analog 5 and 6. And Analog 7 and 8. And 1 and 2). When you toggle the switch to mono for Analog 3 - 4, they will suddenly split apart like spurned
lovers. Each will now become a mono input with its own reverb send, EQ section, compressor etc.
I've just described the "Inputs" window of the Cuemix software program.
First familiarize yourself with this window. Don't worry about whether you hear any of the changes you make, or hear anything at all. Just visually observe what's happening in the window. Try clicking the mono/stereo switch on the inputs. Click on the "Focus" button on some input (such as Analog 1) to select it. Go the right hand side of the window and click on the EQ tab. Adjust the EQ settings. For example, click the small "power switch" button on the first filter to enable it, and adjust its gain, freq, and Q. Now click the Focus button for another input (such as Analog 2). Notice the EQ settings are suddenly different. That's because each input has its own EQ, reverb, compressor, etc, settings. You're seeing the settings for Analog 2 now (instead of Analog 1). NOTE: A stereo input's EQ, reverb, etc, settings affect both inputs. For example, when Analog 3 - 4 are paired up, any EQ setting for this pair affects both In jacks 3 and 4 on the Motu. If you break them apart into 2 mono inputs, then they now have their own settings.
Play around with the Inputs window until you're familiar with it. You can add individual reverb, EQ, compression, etc, to each input. (Again, don't worry about hearing anything. Just visually observe how the controls work). But there's a limit to how much the MOTU can handle. Look at the upper left corner of Cuemix, and you'll see a DSP meter. AS you use more and more DSP, you'll see this meter creep up and up until it finally maxes out.
OK, now you're thinking "I understand what this window is doing, but I still don't hear a damn thing, and nothing is showing up in my DAW window even though its recording MOTU Mix 1 - 2". Ok, what would happen if you attached your DAW to the main outs of a mixer, turned up the trim/faders for each input, but forgot to turn the master (volume) fader up? You get nothing. So, you've got to turn the MOTU's master fader up. Where is it? It's on the Mixes page. Let's go over there.
You see that fader farthest to the right (under "Bus 1")? That's your master fader. But wait. There are settings for each of the inputs on this page too. Here you'll find the pan for each input, a solo button, a mute button, And a second fader?? Yep. This is like a sub-group fader for this input. You'll understand why it's useful later on. Essentially, on the Inputs page you want to set the Analog 1 trim/fader so that you get the loudest possible signal (from your mic) without clipping. Then, you'll use the Analog 1 fader on the Mixes page to set the final, desired mic volume within the mix. And don't forget to unmute the inputs you want to record. Now you should be getting some input signal in your DAW. (Your DAW should be recording MOTU Mix 1 - 2 device, which corresponds to your Bus 1 mix). Want to add some reverb to Analog 1 on the recording? You're in the Mixes window. Any changes you make here, and on the Inputs window, will affect your recording. Make sure you turned up the Return Send knob for Analog 1 on the Inputs window. Now go to the Mixes window. On the master fader there are Reverb send and return knobs. Turn up the Return knob to add reverb to your mix. (If it's disabled, go to the Reverb unit's settings on the right and set the "Split Point" to Mix).
What is the Return Send for on the master fader? This is if you don't want to use the return send knobs on each individual input in the Input window. If you just want to put an equal amount of reverb on every input, you can do that with the master fader's Reverb Send. This sends the entire stereo mix to the reverb. Me, I prefer individual reverb level per input, so I always leave the master fader's Reverb Send off, and instead use the reverb sends on the Inputs window. Use one or the other. But in either case, you do need to increase the master fader's "Reverb Return" to add reverb to your recording).
Note that your Mixes window also has a fader for your SPDIF input (and any other digital inputs you have) in case you want to add these to the mix and record them too. You may have to scroll them into view (with the scroll bar at the bottom of the window). There are also settings for these on the Inputs window, for example, if you want to add EQ to the SPDIF input.
What settings you've made on the Inputs, and Bus 1 Mixes, windows are what you're recording. But wait! If you order this special TV offer RIGHT NOW, you'll get not 1 Mix, BUT 8 TOTAL MIXES! THEY MAKE GREAT GIFTS! GIVE THEM TO YOUR FRIENDS, FAMILY, PAROLE OFFICER... Sorry.
Ok, you see where you switch between the Inputs, Mixes, and Outputs windows (ie, where you see the 3 words "Inputs", "Mixes", and "Outputs")? If you look closely at the word "Mixes", you'll see a tiny triangle to the immediate right of the word. Click on this triangle and a dropdown list will display showing you have a total of 8 mixes (with a check next to Bus 1, indicating you're currently editing that mix). If you select another mix, all your faders, switches, etc will suddenly change. You're now looking at this mix's settings (instead of Bus 1). That's right. You don't have just the one set of subgroups, and one master fader. You've got 8 of those. You can set up 8 different mixes. You can mute certain inputs in one mix, and unmute them in others. You can use those faders to set different volumes in different mixes (and now you know what they're good for).
So let's say you've set up Bus 2 with different settings and you want to hear it. Go over to the master fader (for Bus 2) and change it to output of "Main Out 1 - 2". (When you do this, Bus 1 will automatically switch to another pair of output jacks. So when you go back to Bus 1, you'll have to change it back to "Main Out 1 - 2"). One of the main goals of those bus mixes is so that you can set up 8 different mixes, each one going to a different set of Motu out jacks. You'll normally use Main Out 1 - 2 for your studio monitors. Then, you can plug a stereo monitor amp into out jacks 3 and 4. Setup another mix and assign it to output "Analog 3 - 4". Set up another mix for out jacks 5 and 6. Now you can give two musicians headphones with completely different mixes, and a different mix than what you're recording. If musician 1 says "Turn my guitar up", you flip to his mix on the Mixes page, and increase the fader on the input he plugged his guitar into. The second musician says "Turn me up too". You flip to _his_ mix on the mixes page, and turn his input fader up.
But having multiple mixes can be useful for trying out different mixes, and quickly comparing them. Note that any changes you make to settings in the Inputs window do affect all 8 mixes.
So what's the Outputs window for? This is just to do things like add EQ, compression, reverb etc to the various MOTU out jacks. (In other words, just for the monitor speakers or headphone mixes). None of this affects recording (with one exception I'll mention soon). So let's say you want to record your mix dry, but listen to it wet (with reverb). Go back to the Mixes window. Turn down the Reverb Return knob on the master fader. Now, no reverb on your recording. Go to the Outputs window. Assuming your monitors are attached to Main Out 1 - 2, turn up the Reverb Return knob for Main Out 1 - 2. (You may need to go to the Reverb unit's settings and set the "Split Point" to "Output"). You're hearing reverb in your monitors, but it's not being recorded.
Let's assume your monitor speakers aren't very flat. You'd like to EQ them, but you don't want to apply this to your recordings. Then change the EQ settings for "Main Out 1 - 2" on the Outputs page. This is an entirely different EQ unit than any of the ones applied on the Inputs (or Mixes) window. It doesn't affect recording. Same thing with the compression/limiter on the Outputs page.
Basically, if you want to record exactly what you're hearing on the monitors, make all your settings on the other two windows.
Leave Outputs alone.
Now you may be thinking the MOTU is way overkill for you. Maybe you don't care about all these individual setups. You just want one mix, throw a little reverb on the whole thing, and record what you hear out of the monitors. Well, there's an easy way. Run the "Motu Audio Console". There's a setting called "Return assign". Set it to "Main Out 1 - 2". Now go into our DAW and set its input device to "MOTU Stereo Return 1 - 2". This recording is now taken right from the main out jacks. You're recording exactly what you hear.
Let's say you have an 8 input mixer. Those 8 inputs can optionally be configured as 4 stereo inputs, or any combination thereof. By default, the first two inputs (which are the only two that have both XLR and 1/4" jacks) are configured as two mono inputs labeled "Analog 1" and "Analog 2". The remaining 6 inputs, which have only 1/4 jacks, are configured as stereo pairs, and are labeled "Analog 3 - 4", "Analog 5 - 6". and "Analog 7 - 8".
Every input has its own reverb send knob, an elaborate EQ section (many knobs and choices of filters, many of which can be applied simultaneously), its own compressor/limiter, input trim knob, volume fader, and phase switch. Each input also has a stereo/mono toggle switch. For example when you set Analog 3's switch to stereo, it automatially pairs up with Analog 4 to become a stereo input called "Analog 3 - 4". (And note these are for the two 1/4" In jacks labeled 3 and 4 on the back of the MOTU). It cannot be paired with any other input. 3 and 4 are hardwired to pair up together. (So are Analog 5 and 6. And Analog 7 and 8. And 1 and 2). When you toggle the switch to mono for Analog 3 - 4, they will suddenly split apart like spurned
lovers. Each will now become a mono input with its own reverb send, EQ section, compressor etc.
I've just described the "Inputs" window of the Cuemix software program.
First familiarize yourself with this window. Don't worry about whether you hear any of the changes you make, or hear anything at all. Just visually observe what's happening in the window. Try clicking the mono/stereo switch on the inputs. Click on the "Focus" button on some input (such as Analog 1) to select it. Go the right hand side of the window and click on the EQ tab. Adjust the EQ settings. For example, click the small "power switch" button on the first filter to enable it, and adjust its gain, freq, and Q. Now click the Focus button for another input (such as Analog 2). Notice the EQ settings are suddenly different. That's because each input has its own EQ, reverb, compressor, etc, settings. You're seeing the settings for Analog 2 now (instead of Analog 1). NOTE: A stereo input's EQ, reverb, etc, settings affect both inputs. For example, when Analog 3 - 4 are paired up, any EQ setting for this pair affects both In jacks 3 and 4 on the Motu. If you break them apart into 2 mono inputs, then they now have their own settings.
Play around with the Inputs window until you're familiar with it. You can add individual reverb, EQ, compression, etc, to each input. (Again, don't worry about hearing anything. Just visually observe how the controls work). But there's a limit to how much the MOTU can handle. Look at the upper left corner of Cuemix, and you'll see a DSP meter. AS you use more and more DSP, you'll see this meter creep up and up until it finally maxes out.
OK, now you're thinking "I understand what this window is doing, but I still don't hear a damn thing, and nothing is showing up in my DAW window even though its recording MOTU Mix 1 - 2". Ok, what would happen if you attached your DAW to the main outs of a mixer, turned up the trim/faders for each input, but forgot to turn the master (volume) fader up? You get nothing. So, you've got to turn the MOTU's master fader up. Where is it? It's on the Mixes page. Let's go over there.
You see that fader farthest to the right (under "Bus 1")? That's your master fader. But wait. There are settings for each of the inputs on this page too. Here you'll find the pan for each input, a solo button, a mute button, And a second fader?? Yep. This is like a sub-group fader for this input. You'll understand why it's useful later on. Essentially, on the Inputs page you want to set the Analog 1 trim/fader so that you get the loudest possible signal (from your mic) without clipping. Then, you'll use the Analog 1 fader on the Mixes page to set the final, desired mic volume within the mix. And don't forget to unmute the inputs you want to record. Now you should be getting some input signal in your DAW. (Your DAW should be recording MOTU Mix 1 - 2 device, which corresponds to your Bus 1 mix). Want to add some reverb to Analog 1 on the recording? You're in the Mixes window. Any changes you make here, and on the Inputs window, will affect your recording. Make sure you turned up the Return Send knob for Analog 1 on the Inputs window. Now go to the Mixes window. On the master fader there are Reverb send and return knobs. Turn up the Return knob to add reverb to your mix. (If it's disabled, go to the Reverb unit's settings on the right and set the "Split Point" to Mix).
What is the Return Send for on the master fader? This is if you don't want to use the return send knobs on each individual input in the Input window. If you just want to put an equal amount of reverb on every input, you can do that with the master fader's Reverb Send. This sends the entire stereo mix to the reverb. Me, I prefer individual reverb level per input, so I always leave the master fader's Reverb Send off, and instead use the reverb sends on the Inputs window. Use one or the other. But in either case, you do need to increase the master fader's "Reverb Return" to add reverb to your recording).
Note that your Mixes window also has a fader for your SPDIF input (and any other digital inputs you have) in case you want to add these to the mix and record them too. You may have to scroll them into view (with the scroll bar at the bottom of the window). There are also settings for these on the Inputs window, for example, if you want to add EQ to the SPDIF input.
What settings you've made on the Inputs, and Bus 1 Mixes, windows are what you're recording. But wait! If you order this special TV offer RIGHT NOW, you'll get not 1 Mix, BUT 8 TOTAL MIXES! THEY MAKE GREAT GIFTS! GIVE THEM TO YOUR FRIENDS, FAMILY, PAROLE OFFICER... Sorry.
Ok, you see where you switch between the Inputs, Mixes, and Outputs windows (ie, where you see the 3 words "Inputs", "Mixes", and "Outputs")? If you look closely at the word "Mixes", you'll see a tiny triangle to the immediate right of the word. Click on this triangle and a dropdown list will display showing you have a total of 8 mixes (with a check next to Bus 1, indicating you're currently editing that mix). If you select another mix, all your faders, switches, etc will suddenly change. You're now looking at this mix's settings (instead of Bus 1). That's right. You don't have just the one set of subgroups, and one master fader. You've got 8 of those. You can set up 8 different mixes. You can mute certain inputs in one mix, and unmute them in others. You can use those faders to set different volumes in different mixes (and now you know what they're good for).
So let's say you've set up Bus 2 with different settings and you want to hear it. Go over to the master fader (for Bus 2) and change it to output of "Main Out 1 - 2". (When you do this, Bus 1 will automatically switch to another pair of output jacks. So when you go back to Bus 1, you'll have to change it back to "Main Out 1 - 2"). One of the main goals of those bus mixes is so that you can set up 8 different mixes, each one going to a different set of Motu out jacks. You'll normally use Main Out 1 - 2 for your studio monitors. Then, you can plug a stereo monitor amp into out jacks 3 and 4. Setup another mix and assign it to output "Analog 3 - 4". Set up another mix for out jacks 5 and 6. Now you can give two musicians headphones with completely different mixes, and a different mix than what you're recording. If musician 1 says "Turn my guitar up", you flip to his mix on the Mixes page, and increase the fader on the input he plugged his guitar into. The second musician says "Turn me up too". You flip to _his_ mix on the mixes page, and turn his input fader up.
But having multiple mixes can be useful for trying out different mixes, and quickly comparing them. Note that any changes you make to settings in the Inputs window do affect all 8 mixes.
So what's the Outputs window for? This is just to do things like add EQ, compression, reverb etc to the various MOTU out jacks. (In other words, just for the monitor speakers or headphone mixes). None of this affects recording (with one exception I'll mention soon). So let's say you want to record your mix dry, but listen to it wet (with reverb). Go back to the Mixes window. Turn down the Reverb Return knob on the master fader. Now, no reverb on your recording. Go to the Outputs window. Assuming your monitors are attached to Main Out 1 - 2, turn up the Reverb Return knob for Main Out 1 - 2. (You may need to go to the Reverb unit's settings and set the "Split Point" to "Output"). You're hearing reverb in your monitors, but it's not being recorded.
Let's assume your monitor speakers aren't very flat. You'd like to EQ them, but you don't want to apply this to your recordings. Then change the EQ settings for "Main Out 1 - 2" on the Outputs page. This is an entirely different EQ unit than any of the ones applied on the Inputs (or Mixes) window. It doesn't affect recording. Same thing with the compression/limiter on the Outputs page.
Basically, if you want to record exactly what you're hearing on the monitors, make all your settings on the other two windows.
Leave Outputs alone.
Now you may be thinking the MOTU is way overkill for you. Maybe you don't care about all these individual setups. You just want one mix, throw a little reverb on the whole thing, and record what you hear out of the monitors. Well, there's an easy way. Run the "Motu Audio Console". There's a setting called "Return assign". Set it to "Main Out 1 - 2". Now go into our DAW and set its input device to "MOTU Stereo Return 1 - 2". This recording is now taken right from the main out jacks. You're recording exactly what you hear.
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mandobilly64
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:23 pm
- Primary DAW OS: Windows
Re: Routing issue?: Main outs and recorded track different
I think you left out one thing Jef.
To record the reverb you're hearing if you're recording the individual track, you must also record the reverb returns. Reverb is not added to the tracks that go to the DAW like the EQ and Compression are. Unless I missed something, I think that's the way it works.
Reading the whole section on the Cuemix FX console a few times while trying stuff out is very beneficial as it's a pretty complex thing to wrap your head around at first, but once you get it, you'll see it's a great tool for doing different mixes.
Peace,
Billy
To record the reverb you're hearing if you're recording the individual track, you must also record the reverb returns. Reverb is not added to the tracks that go to the DAW like the EQ and Compression are. Unless I missed something, I think that's the way it works.
Reading the whole section on the Cuemix FX console a few times while trying stuff out is very beneficial as it's a pretty complex thing to wrap your head around at first, but once you get it, you'll see it's a great tool for doing different mixes.
Peace,
Billy
Re: Routing issue?: Main outs and recorded track different
I assume that if you set "Return assign" to "Main Out 1 - 2", you'll get the reverb too.
But I haven't yet recorded with the MOTU, so I'm not sure exactly how the reverb routes in all cases. Right now I'm using the MOTU only as a mixer on live gigs.
It would be helpful if someone expounded on exactly how the Reverb Return device (listed in Windows Sound Control Panel) works. One thing I wondered, but haven't experimented with is:
If you record tracks dry, how do you then later add the MOTU's reverb to them? Or don't you? Do you have to record the Reverb Return device at the same time you record the Mix Inputs in order to capture that particular reverb setting? It seems to me like this may be the case. Obviously your DAW is going to mix everything down to two channels when it sends to the MOTU's Main Outs. At that point the MOTU has lost individual control over each input in the mix. It seems to me that, at this point, the only reverb you can add is to the total stereo mix.
But I haven't yet recorded with the MOTU, so I'm not sure exactly how the reverb routes in all cases. Right now I'm using the MOTU only as a mixer on live gigs.
It would be helpful if someone expounded on exactly how the Reverb Return device (listed in Windows Sound Control Panel) works. One thing I wondered, but haven't experimented with is:
If you record tracks dry, how do you then later add the MOTU's reverb to them? Or don't you? Do you have to record the Reverb Return device at the same time you record the Mix Inputs in order to capture that particular reverb setting? It seems to me like this may be the case. Obviously your DAW is going to mix everything down to two channels when it sends to the MOTU's Main Outs. At that point the MOTU has lost individual control over each input in the mix. It seems to me that, at this point, the only reverb you can add is to the total stereo mix.
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mandobilly64
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:23 pm
- Primary DAW OS: Windows
Re: Routing issue?: Main outs and recorded track different
Yes, you have to add 2 tracks in your DAW and set them up for the reverb returns. Then what you get is a stereo reverb mix of whatever you are adding reverb to.j_e_f wrote:I assume that if you set "Return assign" to "Main Out 1 - 2", you'll get the reverb too.
But I haven't yet recorded with the MOTU, so I'm not sure exactly how the reverb routes in all cases. Right now I'm using the MOTU only as a mixer on live gigs.
It would be helpful if someone expounded on exactly how the Reverb Return device (listed in Windows Sound Control Panel) works. One thing I wondered, but haven't experimented with is:
If you record tracks dry, how do you then later add the MOTU's reverb to them? Or don't you? Do you have to record the Reverb Return device at the same time you record the Mix Inputs in order to capture that particular reverb setting? It seems to me like this may be the case. Obviously your DAW is going to mix everything down to two channels when it sends to the MOTU's Main Outs. At that point the MOTU has lost individual control over each input in the mix. It seems to me that, at this point, the only reverb you can add is to the total stereo mix.
I don't even use MOTU's reverb anymore as I have a TC Electronics outboard reverb unit which has better capabilities. So I just use two input for the return from that and 2 outputs for the inputs, set-up one mix tab for reverb sends. Honestly though, on my last session I ended up trashing what I did while tracking and used the reverb as an external effect in Cubase while mixing, it's much easier finding the reverb you want and getting it timed to the music. The other plus to using the outboard gear is I can use higher sample rates. Motu's only works with the lower rates.
Re: Routing issue?: Main outs and recorded track different
That was an absolutely fantastic response. I already knew almost all of what you said, but it always helps hearing it again 
What I didn't alreay know solved my issue, thanks a ton!
What I didn't alreay know solved my issue, thanks a ton!