Source of MIDI/Timing Issues Found?

[meredithsdg]

I believe that I have found the source of MIDI and timing issues that have plagued me for years. I last posted my frustration with them about a year ago. Through most of the year, they are small enough that I can (mostly) tolerate them. However, each summer I pick up a couple of big projects that I must complete quickly and that's when they really get under my skin.

Turns out that they seem to be caused by using the WAIT button when recording MIDI tracks. This problem seems to be magnified when using the COUNTOFF button in combination with WAIT. This is a shame, because using the 2 together has been a very useful part of my workflow. When using the two together, the click will play continuously until I begin playing. I like this flexibility because sometimes I don't need a whole measure of countoff before I play, sometimes I need more. It is particularly useful when jumping in mid-measure.

However, when I have been sequencing MIDI tracks with WAIT, after working for a while the metronome may begin to randomly click odd beats. MIDI notes might stick. Sometimes, when the transport is still, random MIDI notes will trigger and be stuck on. Sometimes, when other tracks are playing while I'm recording a MIDI track, those tracks will have random notes trigger and stick. I've also had MIDI tracks drop out during playback. This only seems to happen when recording. I use DP for live performance with WAIT all the time and have never had the random note issues. (THANKFULLY!)

In any event, in a recent large (for me) project I was working on, I used the WAIT button sparingly and have very few of the issues listed above.

[jacey714]

Check out the post below which I posted a while back. I had the same problem with no solution.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=40353" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[meredithsdg]

Hey jacey,

Sorry that you're plagued with the problem. Honestly, not using the WAIT button seems to have eradicated it for me.

I scanned through your posts from February. All I can tell you is that I have been using DP since version 3. I have upgraded to every version in between. I always use the most recent drivers and keep my OS up to date. I have had the problem when running through MOTU Fastlane to keyboards and was told by MOTU tech support that it was the USB MIDI driver's problem. But then I had the same problem using Apple's Quicktime Softsynth. I have had the problem using MACHFIVE. I have used internal drives and external drives.

I have used DP (3 and 4) on an G3 iBook and Powerbook G3. I was told the problem was my wasn't up to snuff. I upgraded to a PowerBook G4. Still had the problem. By this time, I was up to DP 5.13. (I should mention I was only trying to record 6 to 12 MIDI tracks and the same number of mono audio tracks. NO EFFECTS OR SIGNAL PROCESSING OF ANY KIND.)

I upgraded to an iMac Intel dual core. I made sure that I did NOT use migration assistant in case the problem was somehow being passed from system to system as I upgraded. I still had the problem.

Last winter I bought a quad core i7 iMac. STILL HAD THE PROBLEM.

I truly don't understand how a program as expensive as DP (especially after all the upgrades I have purchased!) could ever suffer from this glitch. I read how people use it in Hollywood and in professional studios, and I think I could NEVER rely on it for anything outside my home studio where I had people paying me big money to get their job done.

I have posted on this board for help and read the post of others with this agony. It seems every time someone posts for help, there are several posts from people who say they've never had the problem or heard of the problem.

Well, I started reading this forum in 2004 and bookmarked this link:

http://www.unicornation.com/phpBB2/view ... stlane+usb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Like I said, I had the problem in version 3, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.12, 5.13, 6, 7, 7.1, 7.2. (I've probably missed a few in there.)

I just started working on a new project today. I will be very careful to NEVER use the WAIT button throughout the course of the project. I'll let you know what happens.

[jacey714]

I've been trying to sequence music without using the "Wait" button...and it's tough cuz I'm so used to it after all these years. It's one of the reasons why I came back from Logic...I couldn't stand being without the "wait" function.

[Shooshie]

When tracking I always use the Wait button. I usually use the metronome, too, but that varies, depending on musical circumstances irrelevant to this discussion. I don't usually have the problems discussed -- never the timing problems -- but occasionally the stuck note problem. That seems to be related to the VI in use. Some VI's get stuck notes more often than others. Up to DP 7, I almost never got stuck notes. Since then they've become less rare. Stuck notes are not usually a problem for me, though.

I went back to the 2004 link posted above. That was a different time with different problems. Things got so bad at that time that I did a questionnaire and made a database of the responses. The responses were detailed, and there were dozens of fields in the database for the variables. When I began mining the data, it became clear that a particular MIDI driver by MOTU was causing the problem. Because I never switched to that driver, I didn't have the problem. I provided a copy of my older driver to those who asked, and in 100% of the cases, it fixed their problem.

The problem you all are discussing may be similar. Maybe a different MIDI driver would fix it. I would not avoid using Wait. It's not the problem; it's a SYMPTOM of the problem. And the fact that the problem does not appear on everyone's setup is a clue that there is something about your setup that is causing this to happen. Someone said they don't understand how film scores get written with DP acting this way. The answer is that DP doesn't act this way for the vast majority of people, though I realize that doesn't help you. What might help you is to examine some of the things that were helping people the last time this became an epidemic (2004/2005). Try getting your system as updated as possible for your hardware. Avoid plugging the MIDI Time Piece into an unpowered hub. In fact, if you can eliminate hubs from your MIDI chain, you'll be better off.

Some other things that might be of issue: see if you have "MIDI Clicks" set up in your preferences, and try to use those when you can. Are you using the Conductor Track? Or are you using a straight metronome? Is your music set in time to MOTU's beats? Or did you record it free from barline/beat restraints? (that is, did you record a natural performance?) If the latter, you can set up beats and bars that line up with the music by using the Record Beats and/or the Adjust Beats features under "Project/Change Conductor Track/... " This may change the way "Wait" and the metronome behave for you.

If you are using straight metronome (no conductor track), careful about hitting the \ key on your qwerty keyboard. Hitting the \ key twice, then Return, changes the tempo to the interval between taps on the \ key. Again, that's not something that would be happening frequently.

I'm betting it's a MIDI driver problem, but I've been wrong before. In any case, I haven't seen the erratic metronome problem in many years. In fact, I don't think I've seen it since 2003.

Shooshie

[meredithsdg]

Shooshie,

I do appreciate your thoughtful reply. Back in the day, MOTU tech support had me change the MIDI driver and even walked me though what I believe was a terminal command to make sure that the old driver was completely deleted first. Still no go.

I can tell you that I'm doing nothing fancy when the problem rears it's ugly head. I can be working in 4/4 time, no conductor track. (Although it will happen with the conductor track as well.) I have never setup special click patterns. I will be putting in simple parts and playback will just spaz out for no apparent reason.

I worked for several hours today, using only countoff and no wait, no problems whatsoever.

Question, would the MIDI driver affect VIs? Does the MIDI driver only affect data going to the Fastlane?

BTW, I figured out not using my Fastlane on a USB hub the hard way. One day I was having major spaz issues in playback, recording, stuck notes, it was nightmare. I thought at the time that it was my usual glitches on steroids. After have a major melt down that included launching a wireless keypad across my studio (not proud of that!), I figured out that the problem was the hub and went back to a direct MIDI connection. Then the problems subsided to their usual level.

I do know how to troubleshoot a system. I've been through the things you suggested that applied to me. I would just point out that other than doing an occasional piece with a lot of changing time signatures, I'm not really doing anything complex.

The thing that has been so frustrating was that I was a Performer user for 8 or 9 years. I taught workshops on using it. I finally upgraded to Digital Performer and doing the same tasks that I had done for years in old Performer suddenly became glitch filled headaches. I felt like moving up was a giant step back...

[Shooshie]

Shooshie,

I do appreciate your thoughtful reply. Back in the day, MOTU tech support had me change the MIDI driver and even walked me though what I believe was a terminal command to make sure that the old driver was completely deleted first. Still no go.

I doubt that you could have gotten the working driver from MOTU. The one that worked was out of date, and they were NOT handing it out at the time. Many others did the same as you, but only got relief when they tried the old driver. I don't remember the driver number, but it doesn't matter now; it's years out of date, and I think we're talking about an entirely different set of problems.

I can tell you that I'm doing nothing fancy when the problem rears it's ugly head. I can be working in 4/4 time, no conductor track. (Although it will happen with the conductor track as well.) I have never setup special click patterns. I will be putting in simple parts and playback will just spaz out for no apparent reason.

I worked for several hours today, using only countoff and no wait, no problems whatsoever.

Question, would the MIDI driver affect VIs? Does the MIDI driver only affect data going to the Fastlane?

I'm not 100% sure about that. I don't know if the MIDI driver only affects what goes through the MIDI interface, or if it has to do with connecting with Core MIDI. Big question mark on that one. Sorry I don't know the answer. Magic Dave might know.

BTW, I figured out not using my Fastlane on a USB hub the hard way. One day I was having major spaz issues in playback, recording, stuck notes, it was nightmare. I thought at the time that it was my usual glitches on steroids. After have a major melt down that included launching a wireless keypad across my studio (not proud of that!), I figured out that the problem was the hub and went back to a direct MIDI connection. Then the problems subsided to their usual level.

I do know how to troubleshoot a system. I've been through the things you suggested that applied to me. I would just point out that other than doing an occasional piece with a lot of changing time signatures, I'm not really doing anything complex.

The thing that has been so frustrating was that I was a Performer user for 8 or 9 years. I taught workshops on using it. I finally upgraded to Digital Performer and doing the same tasks that I had done for years in old Performer suddenly became glitch filled headaches. I felt like moving up was a giant step back...

Digital Performer dwarfs Performer in size, functions, and problems. Of course, the last version of Performer was released in about January of 1998, and it was pretty much problem free as long as you didn't try to do audio on a 68030 machine. The last version of Performer actually had audio -- up to 8 tracks, I think. Not that those machines could handle that much, but it was a noble effort.

I tried your idea of using the countoff with Wait. That's an odd combination. I never did that before, as it seems antithetical to the whole idea of using Wait. The purpose of "Wait" is to make DP start exactly on your cue. There's no countoff needed. I can see some utility in it, especially if you're in a multi-meter work that's constantly changing tempos. The problem is that if you enter a little off-beat, DP immediately corrects for it and starts the sequence exactly when you enter, which can cause a little tempo blip in the metronome to begin with.

I did experience a problem similar to what you describe -- twice. It started off just fine, but after 4 bars the metronome just went silent. Then it came back in four beats later. I don't know if it was related to my coming in off beat or not. (I was trying to see how far off I could enter and hear the jolt in the tempo) After that, it never happened again. I have no idea what caused it, but I've never used Wait and Countoff at the same time.

No stuck notes. No timing problems. Just the metronome went silent for four beats. Is that similar to your problem?

Shooshie

[meredithsdg]

"I doubt that you could have gotten the working driver from MOTU. The one that worked was out of date, and they were NOT handing it out at the time. Many others did the same as you, but only got relief when they tried the old driver. I don't remember the driver number, but it doesn't matter now; it's years out of date, and I think we're talking about an entirely different set of problems."

Actually, I was having the problem in 2002 or 03, so my problem predated the issue in 4.5. My point was that the MIDI driver always seems to get the blame. For the longest time, I figured it was a problem in OS X that MOTU had no control over.


"I'm not 100% sure about that. I don't know if the MIDI driver only affects what goes through the MIDI interface, or if it has to do with connecting with Core MIDI. Big question mark on that one. Sorry I don't know the answer. Magic Dave might know."

To my way of thinking, if it was the MIDI driver, then the problem would be in MIDI data sent through Fastlane. The fact that the exact same problems occur using virtual instruments - including MachFive by MOTU, Quicktime instruments by Apple, and VIs by others - when no data is going out through the Fastlane, it seems unlikely that is the culprit. Add into the mix that the metronome also spazzes out tends make me think the problem is deeper than a MIDI driver.


"Digital Performer dwarfs Performer in size, functions, and problems. Of course, the last version of Performer was released in about January of 1998, and it was pretty much problem free as long as you didn't try to do audio on a 68030 machine. The last version of Performer actually had audio -- up to 8 tracks, I think. Not that those machines could handle that much, but it was a noble effort."

I understand that. I guess my point is that DP is a software program that costs nearly 2x's what Performer did, runs on (and requires) much higher processing power in a more modern OS. It should be able to handle simple MIDI tasks that Performer did with ease. Keep in mind, I was never asking DP to do more than a handful of MIDI and audio tracks. No EQ, effect processing or, back then at least, VIs.

People seem to want to give DP a pass because it's a tough job handling all the duties thrown at it. We're not talking about a $50 shareware program, but a $700 "state of the art" professional software package. It really should never suffer from this kind of glitch. And like I said, I'm not doing anything that should tax the software.


"I tried your idea of using the countoff with Wait. That's an odd combination. I never did that before, as it seems antithetical to the whole idea of using Wait. The purpose of "Wait" is to make DP start exactly on your cue. There's no countoff needed. I can see some utility in it, especially if you're in a multi-meter work that's constantly changing tempos. The problem is that if you enter a little off-beat, DP immediately corrects for it and starts the sequence exactly when you enter, which can cause a little tempo blip in the metronome to begin with."

Actually, there is great utility in the WAIT/COUNTOFF combination. Let's say that I want to jump in at measure 24, beat 3. I'm also input quantizing, so I need to be sure that my performance is tight on tempo. It's very helpful to hear a few clicks before I enter. Also, depending on the complexity of what I'm about to play, it may be helpful to hear 8 clicks before I come in. Sometimes, it's a simpler passage, 2 clicks and I'm good. I love the flexibility that the combo gives me.

Also, MOTU must have expected the combo as well. Did you notice that when you click wait, the countoff button switches from a number to the infinity sign? Clearly, they were expecting someone might use both in combination, otherwise there was no need to have the countoff button change.


"I did experience a problem similar to what you describe -- twice. It started off just fine, but after 4 bars the metronome just went silent. Then it came back in four beats later. I don't know if it was related to my coming in off beat or not. (I was trying to see how far off I could enter and hear the jolt in the tempo) After that, it never happened again. I have no idea what caused it, but I've never used Wait and Countoff at the same time.

No stuck notes. No timing problems. Just the metronome went silent for four beats. Is that similar to your problem?"

Yes, this is the beginning of the problem. If you continue working, you will likely begin to experience the other problems I listed, dropped notes, stuck notes, random clicks, notes triggering when you're not doing anything, etc.

So may I infer that in your general usage, you mainly use the WAIT button to come in at the beginning of the measure? (or beat?) If so, it would seem that the problems arise when using it to begin playback/record in the middle of a measure. That's interesting. I could see where that might be the problem more than the WAIT/COUNTOFF combo.

Like I said, in a recent project I did use WAIT sparingly and had the issue creep in. I am sure that the only time I used WAIT in that project was to jump in the middle of a measure. I always used COUNTOFF at the beginning of a measure.

Perhaps we have finally narrowed down the problem. (Is there a smily for hopefully optimistic?)