896HD owner, should I add an 8pre or Presonus Digimax D8?

[minx_man]

I am a happy owner of an 896HD running Cubase 2.x on Win XP Pro 32bit SP2. Although I'm not a heavy user the MOTU has worked more or less flawlessly since purchase (4 years ago).

I would like to add an additional 8 inputs (mic/line) and am considering the 8pre and the Presonus Digimax D8.

I have two questions which are interlinked.

1) When using an 896HD as the main soundcard interface (eg 896HD connected to computer via firewire) what are the advantages or differences in connecting an 8pre to the HD using firewire vs ADAT?

According to the sound on sound review ( http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr07/a ... tu8pre.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) if the 8pre is connected to the HD using ADAT then the 8pre inputs automatically show up in Cuemix and can hence be routed along with the existing 896HD inputs to the available 896HD output busses. If that's the case why would anyone daisy chain with Firewire?

2) How would I connect my 896HD and 8pre in order to utilise ALL of the output busses? Eg 4 stereo busses in 896HD plus 2 stereo busses in 8pre. If this is even possible, once configured does it require that the host computer be switched on? Currently my 896HD supports the cuemix config even when my PC is off (although it obviously can't be edited), which I really like, eg just switch on and play without the need to have a PC running.

Many thanks for reading.

[HCMarkus]

Form another post, two birds down:
The ADAT I/O on the 896 is there whether an 8pre or Digimax is connected. As such, the CueMix setup should be persistent regardless. Unless you work at sample rates in excess of 48k, I recommend Lightpipe connections to allow both devices (896 and 8pre or 896 and Digimax) to function under control of the 896 CueMix hardware mixer. My one complaint about the MOTU 8pre is the lack of wordclock I/O, forcing users to clock via Litepipe. I believe the Digimax offers wordclock input for a cleaner clock. One other point: You already have 8 MOTU mic pres. Might a different flavor not offer some variety?

[minx_man]

Many thanks for your response.

I have to agree I couldn't understand why the sound on sound article suggested that the ADAT I/O appearing in the CueMix utility was something unique to using the 8pre with other MOTU gear. Although they didn't say it explicitly the article seemed to imply that using a different brand of pre (eg Digimax) with say an 896HD would mean that submixing of ADAT inputs would have to be done within a DAW. I'm going to assume then that the Digimax inputs WILL appear in the Motu CueMix panel, and hence CAN be routed to the 896HD's busses and that the mix config will be persisted even when the computer is powered down.

As for the difference between using FW chaining over ADAT, ignoring the fact that FW chaining can be problematic under XP, I'm guessing the FW connection would probably support 8channels at the higher sample rates (overcoming the fact that the 896HD only has one ADAT "in" port) and might also give access to the output busses on the 8pre.

Its annoying that MOTU don't publish their manuals online in PDF, I should have a quick read of my 896HD manual to see if it mentions anything about daisychaining over FW.

In any case many thanks for your response, I'll post back any further findings.

Tony

[HCMarkus]

But will you USE higher sample rates? I like all my inputs in one CueMixer, and use only 44.1k and 48k.

[minx_man]

But will you USE higher sample rates?

Probably never, I agree that there is little or no point in 96 or higher at this level of the game. And like you I really want to have everthing lined up in cuemix.

To kind of go back to my original objective, it was to establish if there were any real functional advantages of choosing a motu 8pre over a digimax d8 given that I have a motu896hd already.

Going for the MOTU 8pre in theory allows you to get higher sample rates from all 8 channels into the 896HD via firewire. However I wouldn't use these higher rates and I've heard the firewire daisy chaining can be pretty problematic on Windows.

If we assume that the FW chaining did work reliably then it would appear that you would also be able to use the output busses (there are 2) on the MOTU 8pre since the 8pre would appear as a separate interface in windows. Clearly the Digimax has no output busses so I guess this is the one real advantage of buying the MOTU 8pre, however the 896HD already has 4 output busses which is plenty for me.

My only other concern was ensuring that if I went for a non-motu interface that the inputs would show up in the 896HD CueMix utility. I had a quick read of the 896HD manual last night and it doesn't explicitly say that only MOTU units connected via lightpipe will show up in CueMix, in fact it kinda implies that if you've got something connected to the ADAT-in on the 896HD then the inputs will show up in CueMix regardless of the manufacturer. So it looks like the Sound On Sound article is misleading...

So it looks like I'll be going for the Digimax after all, I'll let you know how I get on. I appreciate your help.

One last slightly off topic point is whether the issues that people have faced with chaining MOTU units over FW could be resolved by connecting the multiple MOTU units to separate FW busses on the host PC? I think most new motherboards have at least 2 independant FW busses and I assume more could be added via PCI-E cards.....would be happy to be corrected on that one....

[HCMarkus]

I use an 828mkII with a Digimax FS, which has eight outputs in addition to the eight ins. I can access any of the outputs from either unit via CueMix, limited by the number of CueMix buses... I just have to select the corresponding output pair for each the four available CueMix stereo buses. In DP (which you are obviously not using, being on a PC) I can access all of the available outputs simultaneously directly from within DP. If you need the extra outputs, take a look at the FS. And if you go with a Presonus unit, pick up a wordclock (BNC) cable while you are at it for a trouble-free clock connection.

Note the inputs already show up in CueMix... they are likely labeled ADAT 1, ADAT 2... ADAT 8. You can re-name all I/O.

[minx_man]

Hey there, thanks for that, yeah I just rechecked the control panel for my 896HD and once I enabled the checkbox for optical input the 8 ADAT ins appeared in the CueMix mixer.

Can I ask how you have connected your Digimax and Motu 828 to your computer? If you are saying that both MOTU's CueMix Panel as well as DP can see and utilise the output buses on both your 828 and Digimax simultaneously then both of these must have full duplex comms with your mac. Problem I have is I don't understand how you've achieved this unless they are both connected to separate FW buses on your mac?

Looking forward to hearing your answer. I will hangfire on the D8 purchase until I hear from you. I don't necessarily need more than the 8 outs I already have on the 896HD but i'd be interested to know how you've achieved this. If i understand you correctly you effectively have 16 analogue output channels available to you in this set up.

[HCMarkus]

Check CueMix and you will note that you can select which physical outputs on your interface are fed from each CueMix bus. Within CueMix under my 828mkII, I can feed 4 pairs of physical outs at once. The mkIII version offer 8 stereo buses, so 8 pairs of outputs can be fed signal from CueMix.

On the other hand, the way Digital Performer is implemented, I can simultaneously send signal to any or all of the 20 physical outputs I have available (not counting headphones - 828: 8 direct analog, 2 main analog, 2 SPDIF; Digimax FS: 8 outs fed by lightpipe from the 828 ADAT Out port) directly from DP. Depending on your software, you may or may not be able to access these additional outs simultaneously. In DP you have to set up "Bundles" corresponding to the physical outs. Remember, the way MOTU implements things in its interfaces, Computer outputs are combined (mixed) with CueMix outs assigned to the same physical output. The level of the Computer outs is adjusted in the DAW software.

If you ever plan to get into surround work, the extra outputs come in handy, not to mention when setting up multiple headphone mixes for bands (multiple headphone amps are also required). Extra outs are also great for integrating outboard reverb/delay hardware. Round-trip delay is not usually an issue with these types of processing.

Have fun!

[minx_man]

Check CueMix and you will note that you can select which physical outputs on your interface are fed from each CueMix bus

understood, my 896HD cuemix panel works the same way, has 4 output busses and on each one you can choose which physical output on the 896HD maps to it

but then you say

8 outs fed by lightpipe from the 828 ADAT Out

This means that you must have the MOTU 828 sending ADAT to the Digimax as well as the Digimax sending ADAT to the MOTU.

So I think then (this is complicated to put into words) your MOTU must be connected to your mac as the primary interface via FW. You get the 8 analogue ins on the MOTU plus the 8 analogue ins on the Digimax all available at the same time cue mix since Digimax is sending ADAT-out to MOTU ADAT-in.

At the same time, the MOTU ADAT-out is hooked back into the Digimax ADAT-in and the Digimax must be configured to echo its ADAT-IN to its analogue outs, thereby providing you with the additional 8 outs. I suspect to get this "echoing" done on the Digimax you must have had to connect it to the mac at some point via FW, configured it and then unplugged it again to get it to operate in "interface/standalone" mode.

Sorry to labour this, now that I've typed it all out I can see how it would work, I don't know why I didn't think of this originally.

Indeed Cubase 2.x on Win would also give me access to the 16 outs (not counting the odd SPDIFS/headphones etc) but its not as flexible as CueMix since as far as I'm aware each track in cubase can only be routed to one output bus at a time during "record mode". In playback its fine since you can create up to 8-aux sends.

Any can I ask you just to confirm whether I have described your setup correctly?

many thanks again

Tony

[HCMarkus]

This means that you must have the MOTU 828 sending ADAT to the Digimax as well as the Digimax sending ADAT to the MOTU.

You betcha! Sorry if I didn't make this clear. The Digimax FS is only an input and output device. It is not an Interface and works with a computer only by virtue of being connected via ADAT IN and OUT to an interface like my 828mkII.

I suspect to get this "echoing" done on the Digimax you must have had to connect it to the mac at some point via FW, configured it and then unplugged it again to get it to operate in "interface/standalone" mode.

The above is not correct. The Digimax ADAT IN is hardwired to its DAC > analog outs. No configuring is required.

Indeed Cubase 2.x on Win would also give me access to the 16 outs (not counting the odd SPDIFS/headphones etc) but its not as flexible as CueMix since as far as I'm aware each track in cubase can only be routed to one output bus at a time during "record mode". In playback its fine since you can create up to 8-aux sends.

In DP you can use Input Monitoring to access more outputs while recording, but latency can be an issue if the buffer setting is not set at a minimum. Unless you need a bunch of headphone mixes, the limitation you describe shouldn't be an issue.

One other nice thing about the FS is the Inserts on each input, which come in VERY handy when tracking with analog compression/eq, etc.

[minx_man]

Just an update to say I went with the Digimax D8 in the end, hooked up to the MOTU896HD via ADAT/TOSlink cable. Digimax has to be clock master since the Digi will only sync to an external clock via BNC.

I am able to see all the Digi inputs in MOTU's cuemix and hence route them where I like in the available 4 CueMix Busses.

The Digi preamps are a little brighter/smoother than the MOTU and generally seem good value. I certainly prefer their sound over the MOTU. My only criticism of the Presonus unit is the meters are a bit average but having the benefit of the 8 additional assignable meters on the MOTU helps. The MOTU meters have greater divisions and are easier to read.

Many thanks to all who contributed advice.

Happy music making

Tony