Bundles not working, what else is new...

[michkhol]

I recognized it right away and I thought it was appropriately given. I'm not saying that your offer to assist Motu was unwarranted. I'm saying that them not taking you up on it was pretty logical.

Then it is logical to assume that they don't consider any regular user worth taking up. Personally I don't care, but it follows that the common gripe here that MOTU does not listen to its users has been thoroughly justified.

When software receives some unexpected input a crash is a pretty reasonable outcome. It would be cool it there were always warnings but you can't have an if/then call attached to every process. Sometimes the crash is your notification.

WRONG. WRONG. WRONG. It's a myth spread by software companies to cover their incompetence. I don't mean anyone in particular but the industry as a whole with very few exceptions. It is technically possible to predict and prevent crashes from malformatted data. But those cases are considered rare and not worth as you say "taking up". I hope you'd agree that such an attitude does not make it not a bug.

I expect that when a plugin vendor lists "Digital Performer" as a supported host, that they both own a current copy of DP and have tested their application on it to see if it works properly in DP.

I wish it were like that. The only company I know that does actual compatibility tests is ProTools. As a result they list specific supported hardware and software configurations. The price of their products reflects the investments into testing. Now take the cost of running business for a small plugin company. Can you afford a complicated test environment for all possible software and hardware combinations? I doubt so. Some might even not have a copy of DP. In most cases they consider a plugin compatible if it passes AU validation under a specific host. And formally they are right because formally it is expected that the host validation should be enough for the plugin to work properly. Now, how much is to put "Digital Performer" into the list of supported hosts? Zero.
If all plugin vendors did proper compatibility tests, the cost structure would be like $20 for the plugin and $500 for testing.

[michkhol]

Trashing MOTU does not get anybody one iota closer to solving the problem.

Please see below.

The only thing that solves the problem is to understand its behavior from a number of contexts, so that we can make statements about it that we are pretty sure are true, and not just generalized and full of anger. Tech support isn't going to be the best channel for passing along this information until we can show them how to make it fail and explain why it is happening.

I have always thought that it should be the software developer's job to do. (In fact it is.) No surprise that people who do bug discovery and documentation for MOTU instead of doing their job get frustrated. And I think the root of their frustration lies deeper than you think. Can you remember last time when MOTU publicly admitted that DP had bugs? The only public information I have from MOTU is "new features, optimizations, refinements and enhancements". From the logical point of view (and this is actually my point) how can you talk about bugs with the company that publicly denies their existence? It's the attitude that gets trashed, not the company. Personally I have no idea how to solve a problem when the source of the problem pretends that it does not exist.

Given the current thread, that's not happening. We're arguing about pointless crap instead of learning what each other knows about this behavior.

As a software developer I assure you that under normal circumstances it should not be the user problem in the first place. So it is indeed the pointless crap, I admit it.

Here are some observed behaviors:

• In Instrument Bundles, it seems to want to take some of the right-channel markers and shift them to the end of the rows.
• Busses Bundles may pick up new busses (or duplicates) when loading a sequence from another file
• Audio Interface Bundles can get really screwed up when you switch interfaces, turn one off, lose power on interfaces, but not on computer. (storm knocks out power for a few seconds, then it comes back on. Computer is on uninterruptible backup power supply, interfaces not)

My observed behaviors:
1. DP loses track of multichannel instruments after they are disabled (project closed, change of interface, losing power).
2. The assigned outputs left are distributed in semi-random order across existing instruments or just lost.
3. Enabling the instrument is equivalent to creating a new one without any assignments.
3. The outputs in the TO window stick to the lost instrument and require manual reassign.

The workaround is to use the "forgotten" instrument as a stop-gap and create another one after it. The second one worked fine for me.

[newrigel]

By all means this is not personal. Unless someone considers himself the one, but it is obviously not jmca's problem. Besides the guy has the point.

I have used 5 different systems with SD and no problems! But I don't do all that bussing. OK, you have a drum kit and you mic it. Well, why would you need to isolate the toms out of a stereo mix? To put reverb on them? In SD there's EQ and dynamics on each channel (plus a transient designer) so unless you want a muddy reverb on the toms, I couldn't see why you'd need to isolate each of those to their own buss when you can mix internally within SD. The only thing you'd need to isolate are the kicks and snares in a drum matrix because those are the elements that drive the track. I run a stereo mix of all the drums and 2 other instances each one with kicks only and snare only and I NEVER have any issues @ all and I have TOTAL control of the way I want the kit to sound. But I don't use reverbs on toms because it takes the transients out of them and they loose their attack and authority but everyones different but metal has some pretty powerful drum parts. If I need to sound design I just solo what I want and print the track... done. Why make it so convoluted. When I track a real drummer in a studio, I have found that the less processing the better if it's a great drummer and a great sounding kit. I don't see where you'd need to bus each element of a kit into DP when you have a mixer (and a pretty nice one @ that!) within SD.
But I use a template and ALL my sequences are based off that ONE template and I never have an issue with my bundles... ever! It's all those different buss assignments session to session that get things wierded out... I just keep it simple (like a real console) and I have better results.

[mrbillet]

Trashing MOTU does not get anybody one iota closer to solving the problem.

Please see below.

The only thing that solves the problem is to understand its behavior from a number of contexts, so that we can make statements about it that we are pretty sure are true, and not just generalized and full of anger. Tech support isn't going to be the best channel for passing along this information until we can show them how to make it fail and explain why it is happening.

I have always thought that it should be the software developer's job to do. (In fact it is.) No surprise that people who do bug discovery and documentation for MOTU instead of doing their job get frustrated. And I think the root of their frustration lies deeper than you think. Can you remember last time when MOTU publicly admitted that DP had bugs? The only public information I have from MOTU is "new features, optimizations, refinements and enhancements". From the logical point of view (and this is actually my point) how can you talk about bugs with the company that publicly denies their existence? It's the attitude that gets trashed, not the company. Personally I have no idea how to solve a problem when the source of the problem pretends that it does not exist.

Given the current thread, that's not happening. We're arguing about pointless crap instead of learning what each other knows about this behavior.

As a software developer I assure you that under normal circumstances it should not be the user problem in the first place. So it is indeed the pointless crap, I admit it.

Here are some observed behaviors:

• In Instrument Bundles, it seems to want to take some of the right-channel markers and shift them to the end of the rows.
• Busses Bundles may pick up new busses (or duplicates) when loading a sequence from another file
• Audio Interface Bundles can get really screwed up when you switch interfaces, turn one off, lose power on interfaces, but not on computer. (storm knocks out power for a few seconds, then it comes back on. Computer is on uninterruptible backup power supply, interfaces not)

My observed behaviors:
1. DP loses track of multichannel instruments after they are disabled (project closed, change of interface, losing power).
2. The assigned outputs left are distributed in semi-random order across existing instruments or just lost.
3. Enabling the instrument is equivalent to creating a new one without any assignments.
3. The outputs in the TO window stick to the lost instrument and require manual reassign.

The workaround is to use the "forgotten" instrument as a stop-gap and create another one after it. The second one worked fine for me.

It seems like you're a rational, thoughtful critic but this discussion isn't going anywhere.

There's a point in the traditional European/American wedding where they ask if anyone has an objection. The people you're talking to are more or less married. We all wish this or that was better about DP, or that it (MOTU) would be more communicative, but it's our marriage and we don't need that colleague at the water cooler telling us they have a problem with our wife. We know she chews with her mouth open when watching TV or says stupid things after drinking at the Christmas dinner. Maybe she flirts with our friends too. Oh man, this is hard stuff to deal with but we've got to make it work don't we.

Yeah, sometimes we have to blow off steam and rant. Just remember you're not dealing with an entirely rational phenomenon, and you can't expect people to appreciate your problems with their spouse, especially when we all share her.

Is this good analogy starting to get weird?

-Ian

[michkhol]

It seems like you're a rational, thoughtful critic but this discussion isn't going anywhere.

Thanks, Ian! Continuing your analogy, it does not make sense when the spouse is not listening.
-Mike

[Shooshie]

Yeah, sometimes we have to blow off steam and rant. Just remember you're not dealing with an entirely rational phenomenon, and you can't expect people to appreciate your problems with their spouse, especially when we all share her.

Is this good analogy starting to get weird?

-Ian

Actually, I've been reading some strange blogs lately, and your post made perfect sense. There are some very unusual people out there. They go by weird names that usually incorporate the word "blog" somewhere within. Like "The Blogette." Then there's a band called Gwar. They have a different approach to troubleshooting. Yes, it's all beginning to make sense.

[mrbillet]

Yes, well, perhaps there are other people who understand as well, and they have Poly Water available for your consumption:

http://jejuneinstitute.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Shooshie]

Yes, well, perhaps there are other people who understand as well, and they have Poly Water available for your consumption:

http://jejuneinstitute.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oh my. It's the Dharma Initiative. Look out for Jacob and Esau, the Smoke Monster!

Jejune Institute is hilarious. Kind of like the Church of Subgenius -- the first Internet-based (with a place in reality, too) cult spoof. The originator of that fake cult was here in Dallas. His wife taught my daughter in 2nd grade. The odd thing is that the more they spoofed the cults, the more cult-like it became, with real powerplays and a lot of serious mojo happening. But the best part was their naked get-togethers in the woods up north somewhere. The pictures from those events looked like a lot of fun! (Except those of my daughter's 2nd grade teacher)

Oh well... all kinds of great weird things out there.

Shoosh

[mrbillet]

Ah, to be 21 and too smart for your own good...

Praise Bob!

[martian]

I think Michkol /jmca have some valid point's - and not surprised to see the predictably defensive responses.

- it took me more than a year of hounding MOTU to get them to admit there was a problem - in DP 5 and 6 - with crash on save -tech support where less helpful as required you to do all the basic stuff - trash prefs - the permissions prayer - disk RAM etc.

in the end I couriered them a DVD of my project(s) and told them to try it ( 4 different computers cant all have the same problem??!! thats what tech support were telling me!!! but u mailed us the project file and we can t crash it...) - 6 months later I got a mail and a solution - again related to corruption of a soundbite files.. I was happy and still am that I can now work - but was very frustrating when stuck in 5 stalled projects - i was about to walk away and invest in another solution for my business.

they have serious communication and trust issues.. and dont seem at all interested working with their professional userbase - I have worked with manufacturers like Fairlight and there is a big difference - ( so's the price !! so maybe this is a clue?? )

It is frustrating that known bugs arent published ( i'd say it's less than professional ) - I would have had a much better time if I had known about the QT playback offset in 5.13 for instance - but in motu style it was left for me to discover - and I was in hell schedule and crash on save - now vindicated - there was and is NOTHING wrong with my system/memory - it works like a dream now ( minor gripes ) cue

back to the thread - bundles definitely have an issue - I have 3 rooms - if I move a project between certain rooms - then my stereo busses become surround busses - and have to be reset every time ( i just mixed a 52 episode series so yes I did it probably 52 times or more )

I suppose it shall be blamed on plug in or something else - but I dont VI / not much in the way of plug in- so who shall we ask?

arent we newer users important in the evolution of DP - it does have some great points - and now on the whole works! ( newer means around 5 years in my case )

[Shooshie]

Martian, I don't think anyone's denying a problem exists, except for my faux-contrariness in the beginning of this thread as a response to the OP. The controversy as I see it has been about attitudes and approaches to discussing it. The defensive replies came from people such as myself who were offended by the original poster's abrasive attitude.

No one is asking for everyone to be an Eagle Scout -- though I respect Eagle Scouts -- but merely not to be completely disrespectful. There's no point in coming here and trashing MOTU and DP users. I don't think the guy has yet described his setup and symptoms in enough detail to be of any help to the discussion. So what's the use? Does he think we're punching bags for his abusive pleasure? He mentioned somewhere the need to let off steam; not on me he won't. I'll fire it right back and let him leave as steamed up as he came in.

But I think we've discussed that junk enough. If this thread is going to redeem itself, there needs to be more information and less accusation. If that's so hard to do, then there's more problems at stake than those in DP. The owner of the board has expressed a desire to weed out some of those types of problems. I second the motion. There's not enough time in a day to deal with people who come in here with a chip on their shoulder. Gearslutz is the perfect place for them to whine up a sympathetic negative chorus without the slightest attempt to find solutions. Not here.

My opinion only.

Shooshie

[michkhol]

Well, here is my opinion. If there is a problem, let's discuss the problem, not the attitudes, people and other unrelated stuff. It makes it the most constructive. I don't care who and how brings it up and how much steam is vented along the way. The best way to deal with emotions is to ignore them.

The problem has been independently confirmed many times but no solution is to be found here in this forum and across the user base in general. "Solution" is the wrong word. Maximum what is possible is to find a workaround(s). The only party that is actually able to find a solution is MOTU and I think I will state the obvious fact that it has been ignoring this problem for years. It's not like I'm very upset about it but like Martian said, it is not professional.

[James Steele]

Well, here is my opinion. If there is a problem, let's discuss the problem, not the attitudes, people and other unrelated stuff. It makes it the most constructive. I don't care who and how brings it up and how much steam is vented along the way. The best way to deal with emotions is to ignore them.

Wrong. As Site Admin my view is that this site isn't here for therapy or people to spill their angst. Also, I'm not going to ignore it when people join up here just so they can vent about MOTU and slam DP with scant details or supporting evidence. Frankly, "ignoring" this in the past on this board resulted in these people setting the while tone and demeanor of the site. On top of it, DP's reputation was allowed to be greatly maligned far beyond what was deserved.

[martian]

i guess every one comes here at different angles - I know I have been guilty of venting my anger on here...

to be honest the best thing that happened recently was james splitting of the boards - I actually learnt more and felt like sharing more thee and then - and it reminds us to be balanced.

i can see peoples points - yep shoot trolls - but it does seem that having more larger gene pool of opinion and ideas around here is a better thing.. we all use DP differently -so we all run in to different problems..

I feel sure ( ) that there were very negative emotions about me when I was venting about crash on save - in my opinion making that stink did perhaps it solved in the end - magic eh?-

I stuck around - and I have definitely passed on what I learned about file errors and solutions which I seem to repeat to new victims every couple of months.. and to be honest Gear Slutz doesnt have the depth of knowledge on here.

kicking someone around (IMO) is not going to help em master DP and therefore continue to be part of its user base.. so once they all leave to go to the next bling thing that leaves the DP user base weaker?

I hope no avatars were injured today!

[James Steele]

kicking someone around (IMO) is not going to help em master DP and therefore continue to be part of its user base.. so once they all leave to go to the next bling thing that leaves the DP user base weaker?

The "kicking" comes from those who sign up here so their first act on this forum can be to kick around DP and rant about problems and rebuffing attempts to find solutions (yes, sometimes SOLUTIONS) or workarounds. But yes if someone shows up and starts bashing DP and characterizing it as unstable and assumes in error that certainly their experience must be EVERYONE ELSE'S then I'm going to ask more questions and in fairness rightly point out that I'm not having a problem and the answer might actually be something besides "those no good so-and-so's at MOTU make crappy software and could care less."

Personally I don't care if those people stay or move on. Many of them will have the same sorts of issues with whichever "the-grass-is-greener" DAW they switch to in a self-righteous huff, and eventually they'll be spilling their anger on someone else's forum.