Bundles not working, what else is new...

[jmca]

Ha! Boner.

[jlaudon]

Well, jmca, you do get one special award - you're about the first person I've ever seen on this forum that's pizzed off Shooshie .

It might help if you checked out some of the forum member signatures - a lot of us also have Logic, PT, and ALL of us have Garageband .

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Kind of hard to figure out what this guy is looking for...

OK, so we can ignore your posts jmca, but it seems (according to your first post) that you've "had it" with DP. So what? Are you here for people to quit the app with you like lemurs? Join you in solidarity? Or is your last gasp with MOTU intended to simply insult the user community on this site?

I suggest you post over at GearSluts as they are more prone to engage in this kind of thing. Heck, you can even vote for Garageband. But what exactly are you looking for at MOTUNation? You haven't ask for help, asked questions, or anything of the kind, just bitched.

Or maybe you thought you were at mohawk nation? I think that was YMCA, not jmca...

[Shooshie]

Thanks for the trying to open conversation to resolve. I kind of got side tracked with Shooshie. My original topic was about frustration towards MOTU and not the users, in which I am one. The original issue of bundles, I just deal with it as I always have. The reason my situation promotes this ongoing prob is that I switch audio hardware constantly due to on location situations as well as a plethora of certain plugins. Some plugins always work as expected others do not. But the ones that do not have a prob mainly have the issue with DP and not other DAWS on the market. I do not hate DP, but sometimes you get pissed at your wife or one of your many wives. When I'm in the part of the year where I stick with one setup, things tend to run smoothly. Otherwise, DP is not the ideal on location software. At least not for me and many of my associates.

Have you ever saved and loaded Bundles setups?

[newrigel]

The thing is, MAS is set in it's ways. I've used every DAW out there and learned that DP definitely has a way of doing things... it's a DAW that has a musician in mind with the ground up way of working and I think you'd be better off with something that's a bit more set to your ways of working. It's not that your ways are bad, they just aren't the way MAS was designed to run. I work off templates and all my problems have vanished over night because I found that not all 3rd party applications, plugs, and VI's work in every way known to man and in every configuration possible. I found ways of getting stellar results and yes, "I have to work this way" but it's not good or bad, it's just different, and with this in practice... I have been able to achieve things way beyond my expectations! If I had it with DP I'd go get me a 2 inch and an SSL and be done with it because ALL DAW's are going to give you some ••••... it's STILL virgin territory even though they've been around a while because we keep asking more and more out of our DAW's and just expecting them to just work! Sometimes you have to get in there and just experiment and see how things work together and I know that DP has a way of doing things... but it's a way I have come to respect, and I achieve VERY professional results! It's unfortunate when I hear guys like you take on such a hostile approach when you need to understand, I was one of you and I sat back and took a breath and said to myself... I'm going to take a non biased approach to my problems and after I found out most of the issues were my ways of doing things... they all disappeared! if I was you I'd really get into some custom templates... get a session that works really good, and has most of everything you need as far as busses and auxiliaries etc. and save it as a template... then you won't have your bundles issues with coming from a session with say 32 busses to a session needing 60! I max mine out to 99 and they are always on line and running (but I have these SSD's and DSP cards too which really help) and if anything, just disable tracks, don't go dynamically instantiating busses... this is where MAS has it's issues I have found so I just run all the busses open... haven't had an issue since! Now if I could just make that lock go away in the SB's window things would be UTOPIA!
Take care...

[newrigel]

Thanks for the trying to open conversation to resolve. I kind of got side tracked with Shooshie. My original topic was about frustration towards MOTU and not the users, in which I am one. The original issue of bundles, I just deal with it as I always have. The reason my situation promotes this ongoing prob is that I switch audio hardware constantly due to on location situations as well as a plethora of certain plugins. Some plugins always work as expected others do not. But the ones that do not have a prob mainly have the issue with DP and not other DAWS on the market. I do not hate DP, but sometimes you get pissed at your wife or one of your many wives. When I'm in the part of the year where I stick with one setup, things tend to run smoothly. Otherwise, DP is not the ideal on location software. At least not for me and many of my associates.

Have you ever saved and loaded Bundles setups?

EXACTLY Shoosie! But I do that with session templates and I don't ever have an issue! It took me a while to really grasp it because DP has the chunks thing and that in itself is deep hence the 99 busses! I just keep them all on... haven't had an issue since!
Man, I've NEVER seen you angry... even @ ME he he.

[mrbillet]

Kind of hard to figure out what this guy is looking for...

C'mon, who's your favorite Village Person?

Ok, I'll bite: Biker.

The Hot Cop is a close second.

Fav song?
In The Navy!

Where can you find pleasure
Search the world for treasure
Learn science technology
Where can you begin to make your dreams all come true
On the land or on the sea
Where can you learn to fly
Play in sports and skin dive
Study oceanography
Sign up for the big band
Or sit in the grandstand
When your team and others meet


In the navy
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the navy
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the navy
Come on now, people, make a stand
In the navy, in the navy
Can't you see we need a hand
In the navy
Come on, protect the motherland
In the navy
Come on and join your fellow man
In the navy
Come on people, and make a stand
In the navy, in the navy, in the navy (in the navy)


They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit


If you like adventure
Don't you wait to enter
The recruiting office fast
Don't you hesitate
There is no need to wait
They're signing up new seamen fast
Maybe you are too young
To join up today
Bout don't you worry 'bout a thing
For I'm sure there will be
Always a good navy
Protecting the land and sea


In the navy
Yes, you can sail the seven seas
In the navy
Yes, you can put your mind at ease
In the navy
Come on now, people, make a stand
In the navy, in the navy
Can't you see we need a hand
In the navy
Come on, protect the motherland
In the navy
Come on and join your fellow man
In the navy
Come on people, and make a stand
In the navy, in the navy, in the navy (in the navy)


They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit


Who me?


They want you, they want you
They want you as a new recruit


But, but but I'm afraid of water.
Hey, hey look
Man, I get seasick even watchin' it on TV!


They want you, they want you in the navy


Oh my goodness.
What am I gonna do in a submarine?


They want you, they want you in the navy

[James Steele]

For the DP squealers that are hopelessly in love with DP...

Drop the personal attacks jmca or I'll bounce your right out of here it two seconds flat. I don't put this board up online to deal with that sort of thing. Cool?

[michkhol]

By all means this is not personal. Unless someone considers himself the one, but it is obviously not jmca's problem. Besides the guy has the point.

[Shooshie]

By all means this is not personal. Unless someone considers himself the one, but it is obviously not jmca's problem. Besides the guy has the point.

"The point" would be to come here and discuss your experience with a problem, giving technical details that, combined with others' details, might lead to someone finding the pattern that identifies it and leads to a fix.

This guy did not have "the point."

I'm well aware of the passive aggressive resentment we have caused by demanding that people tone down their uglified portrayals of DP, but someone had to do it. Things had gotten out of hand with the stories becoming quite detached and far from the reality of the dramatic improvements that have been made in DP over the past year. It was obvious that the overplayed drama had become a circus of fools who mostly just didn't want to learn the new interface imposed back in DP6, and who apparently did not notice that 6.02 (not to mention 7.0) had become very stable, after the disaster that was 6.0 -- which they preferred to focus on.

Now we have legitimate problems, but nothing unusual among DAWs, comparatively speaking. It's time to shut down the circus and get back to problem solving.

I repeat: this guy did not have "the point." That would go to this person, who had the same problem as the juvenile jmca, but who approached it as an adult seeking to find answers to bewildering problems.

Shooshie

[michkhol]

I would love to "get back to problem solving" only MOTU does not seem to be interested. Here is the quote from one of my tech-links (before it gets deleted). It clearly shows the MOTU attitude.

Added by Michael (me) on 2010/03/04 08:49:09 US/Central
Mike,

You are right, this was most likely the corrupted soundbite. DP didn't crash after I reloaded the sequence into a new project.

I hope in the next update DP will report an error and/or fix the corrupted soundbite instead of crashing. I can send you the project with this soundbite if you need it.
Added by Mike (the support guy) on 2010/03/08 14:00:08 US/Central
Hi Michael,

We are always working on updates to improve stability and performance. All updates and news items are posted at http://www.motu.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, so check back periodically or subscribe to our news feed.

As for the interface, both for DP 5,6-7, it is no better or worse than competition (IMHO) with one glaring omission: no floating windows. You cannot have say a plugin window or a dialog always on top. Given the easiness of how one could have it done using standard window controls, something should be really messed up in the DP's GUI code. This omission can be easily qualified as obsolete.

As for "the point" let's have an analogy. Imagine every now and then you have a graphics glitch on your Mac so it makes it impossible to continue working (including saving your work). The only workaround that works is to reboot the system. Would you call it "an adult seeking to find answers to bewildering problems" or demand the OS update from Apple? Complete reloading a project/bundles is much like the system reboot but takes much longer.

[KEVORKIAN]

I would love to "get back to problem solving" only MOTU does not seem to be interested. Here is the quote from one of my tech-links (before it gets deleted). It clearly shows the MOTU attitude.

Added by Michael (me) on 2010/03/04 08:49:09 US/Central
Mike,

You are right, this was most likely the corrupted soundbite. DP didn't crash after I reloaded the sequence into a new project.

I hope in the next update DP will report an error and/or fix the corrupted soundbite instead of crashing. I can send you the project with this soundbite if you need it.
Added by Mike (the support guy) on 2010/03/08 14:00:08 US/Central
Hi Michael,

We are always working on updates to improve stability and performance. All updates and news items are posted at http://www.motu.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, so check back periodically or subscribe to our news feed.

What is wrong with that reply? Do you think they seriously need your assistance in providing them with a corrupted soundbite?!?! I'm sure they have computers too.

As for the interface, both for DP 5,6-7, it is no better or worse than competition (IMHO) with one glaring omission: no floating windows. You cannot have say a plugin window or a dialog always on top. Given the easiness of how one could have it done using standard window controls, something should be really messed up in the DP's GUI code. This omission can be easily qualified as obsolete.

This is a separate gripe and although it would be nice to have, it is not a show stopper. Apple gives you tons of ways to manage windows quickly and effectively so you have got to be able to make this work right?

As for "the point" let's have an analogy. Imagine every now and then you have a graphics glitch on your Mac so it makes it impossible to continue working (including saving your work). The only workaround that works is to reboot the system. Would you call it "an adult seeking to find answers to bewildering problems" or demand the OS update from Apple? Complete reloading a project/bundles is much like the system reboot but takes much longer.

We had a long conversation on GS and for some reason your analogies remain very one-sided:

If Apple had a graphics issue that required a reboot, then because apple makes the hardware and the OS they are the ONLY company that can fix this. (assuming this is an Apple graphics issue).

In this case the bundles that are getting messed up belong to 3rd party applications and not Motu (!!!). This means that any fixes are absolutely a 2-way street.

These "Bundles" we are discussing are simply graphic representations of the inputs and outputs of a given plugin. If the plugin is not instantiated or reporting them then DP doesn't see them... Case in point... Superior Drummer does not publish it's Multichannel outputs to DP until I chose to make a Multichannel routing within the plugin. This says to me that Superior Drummer is actively reporting it's number of outputs to DP and it also seems likely that when first instantiated, Superior Drummer says "I have 2 outputs" to DP before saying "Wait I actually have 10 outputs". meanwhile DP was off reconciling the project to the first instruction.

You can be sure that if Logic was having this issue (much like the keyboard stealing issue), developers would find a way to offer a fix (even if that meant they had to do more work). Because DP is less popular, they push it back on Motu.

[michkhol]

What is wrong with that reply? Do you think they seriously need your assistance in providing them with a corrupted soundbite?!?! I'm sure they have computers too.

You are lucky if you don't recognize the standard boilerplate telling in fact the user to take a hike, because apparently you haven't seen them much. I used to work in software support and I know what I'm talking about. And yes, I think they need an assistance with corrupted soundbites because this and similar corruption issues have been plagued DP for years and MOTU has been unable to address them. I also know developers who actually work with their users in resolving issues.

This is a separate gripe and although it would be nice to have, it is not a show stopper. Apple gives you tons of ways to manage windows quickly and effectively so you have got to be able to make this work right?

I was talking about obsolete features, not show stoppers.

...
In this case the bundles that are getting messed up belong to 3rd party applications and not Motu (!!!). This means that any fixes are absolutely a 2-way street.
...

I hope you've noticed that I didn't blame anyone in particular in the bundles issue. But if you insist, let's look at it closer. Bundles architecture and implementation is not Apple's or plugin developer's but DP's alone. Other DAWs implement the same concept differently so they are just not able to have this particular issue. So if DP has relatively small market, it is very unwise of MOTU to expect the plugin developers to adapt their software specifically for DP, especially if it already works fine with other DAWs. There is no other to blame, you are either in business or not.
As for workarounds, if you have a leaking water pipe in your house, you can use a workaround by putting a bucket under it and empty it periodically 24/7. It is commendable, but I think you'd agree that fixing the pipe would be a better solution.

[KEVORKIAN]

What is wrong with that reply? Do you think they seriously need your assistance in providing them with a corrupted soundbite?!?! I'm sure they have computers too.

You are lucky if you don't recognize the standard boilerplate telling in fact the user to take a hike, because apparently you haven't seen them much. I used to work in software support and I know what I'm talking about. And yes, I think they need an assistance with corrupted soundbites because this and similar corruption issues have been plagued DP for years and MOTU has been unable to address them. I also know developers who actually work with their users in resolving issues.

I recognized it right away and I thought it was appropriately given. I'm not saying that your offer to assist Motu was unwarranted. I'm saying that them not taking you up on it was pretty logical.

BTW... Check out this thread where the OP mentions Sonar crashing upon importing some BWAV files:

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=40890

When software receives some unexpected input a crash is a pretty reasonable outcome. It would be cool it there were always warnings but you can't have an if/then call attached to every process. Sometimes the crash is your notification.

...
In this case the bundles that are getting messed up belong to 3rd party applications and not Motu (!!!). This means that any fixes are absolutely a 2-way street.
...

I hope you've noticed that I didn't blame anyone in particular in the bundles issue. But if you insist, let's look at it closer. Bundles architecture and implementation is not Apple's or plugin developer's but DP's alone. Other DAWs implement the same concept differently so they are just not able to have this particular issue. So if DP has relatively small market, it is very unwise of MOTU to expect the plugin developers to adapt their software specifically for DP, especially if it already works fine with other DAWs. There is no other to blame, you are either in business or not.

I expect that when a plugin vendor lists "Digital Performer" as a supported host, that they both own a current copy of DP and have tested their application on it to see if it works properly in DP.

If there are bugs then they need to be addressed by the plugin vendor first where possible since they are the one's taking customer's money and promising computability with their favored host.

In this instance, I see some plugins that do not share these issues with DP's Bundles and that makes me think that not all that can be done is being done to support DP by the vendors in question.

As for workarounds, if you have a leaking water pipe in your house, you can use a workaround by putting a bucket under it and empty it periodically 24/7. It is commendable, but I think you'd agree that fixing the pipe would be a better solution.

I like this analogy and I agree!

[Shooshie]

Michkol, you continually miss the point regarding this thread. And I'm only talking about THIS thread.

Trashing MOTU does not get anybody one iota closer to solving the problem. The only thing that solves the problem is to understand its behavior from a number of contexts, so that we can make statements about it that we are pretty sure are true, and not just generalized and full of anger. Tech support isn't going to be the best channel for passing along this information until we can show them how to make it fail and explain why it is happening.

Some things are more obvious, and Tech Support grasps it quickly. Other things just seem too much like user error. This problem has occurred before for different reasons. What I'm seeing now is a new angle on an old problem. The old problem was more easily avoided or fixed. This new one is a little more complicated, but I'm not so sure it's a bug or if it's poor design that doesn't catch it when people (or VI's) don't do exactly what it's expecting them to. Either way, MOTU has some fixing to do, but if we speed the process along, it's in our best interest to discuss the actual problem and learn as much as we can about where, what, when, how, and why this is happening.

Given the current thread, that's not happening. We're arguing about pointless crap instead of learning what each other knows about this behavior.

Here are some observed behaviors:

• In Instrument Bundles, it seems to want to take some of the right-channel markers and shift them to the end of the rows.
• Busses Bundles may pick up new busses (or duplicates) when loading a sequence from another file
• Audio Interface Bundles can get really screwed up when you switch interfaces, turn one off, lose power on interfaces, but not on computer. (storm knocks out power for a few seconds, then it comes back on. Computer is on uninterruptible backup power supply, interfaces not)

I'll add more as I remember them or see them.

Shooshie