Bigger bottleneck = FW external HD's or <= 4 GB RAM?

[mhschmieder]

Circumstances may force me to get a new Mac this week or next, as I am on EXTREMELY tight deadlines for live theatrical stage shows and associated short films, and may not be able to wait for the next MacPros (which likely won't arrive until May or June) and refuse to spend a premium on the old ones.

Looking at what XtremeMacs has to offer on eBay for customizing notebooks, Mac Mini's, and iMacs to be better specced for audio and other production work, I have some viable choices in terms of SSD's, RAID drives, dual drives in place of SuperDrive on standard Mini (cheaper than buying Apple's Mini Server, and more flexible) and even some iMac custom options (probably less easy than MBP or Mini customization though).

Given a choice between limiting oneself to 4 GB of RAM, and limiting to a single internal HD and all other HD access via FW, which would be the bigger bottleneck with streaming sample libraries such as VSL and Kontakt?

There are some solutions that solve both problems, but the bang-for-buck quickly approaches near-zero-return vs. the MacPro.

It does look possible to build a financially palatable custom Mini with two internal drives, where one would probably use SSD for a sample library drive vs. using RAID for performance or safety backup, due to the trade-offs involved with all of the choices.

[Frodo]

...
There are some solutions that solve both problems, but the bang-for-buck quickly approaches near-zero-return vs. the MacPro.

I couldn't agree with that, really, although I have great respect for available cash (or the lack). Trust me.

That said, as I ponder your original question-- FW external or 4GB RAM-- it poses a problem. The reasons include the fact that you mentioned Kontakt, the latest versions of which thrive to access more RAM than just 4GB available to ay 32-bit app, let alone that which is installed. That *can* be a problem if you push Kontakt too hard.

The other side of it is the FW HDs. Now, I've never tested the newest Macs with the oh-so-brawny new firewire buss speeds, but I'm a little stuck here:

If you are doing DAW work, you are going to benefit from separate drives running audio and VIs respectively. You already know that.

However, whenever I bought a new machine from the G5 days onward, it just made too much sense to put at least 6GB or more of RAM into it almost right out of the gate. Reasons? Like you, I use VSL stuff-- and VSL (like the latest versions of Kontakt) access RAM outside of DP's 4GB max.

Here's the pinch--- if DP can make use of 4GB, then what's left for OSX and Virtual Memory to work with? Further, what's left for Kontakt and anything related to VSL?

If the Mac Mini is your choice, then make that decision with the full awareness that it is a stop-gap solution. There's nothing wrong with that-- but you will eventually find unforeseen brick walls with the Mac Mini as well for as attractive as they appear right now where "anything would be better than what I've got..." is the usual mantra-slash-assumption.

What's more, you will have to live with the Mac Mini until your next computer purchase. That is a serious consideration. Would getting a Mac Mini today set you back months from getting a machine that will do what you need it to do over the life of the Apple Care that goes with it? Are you absolutely certain that the Mac Mini is going to solve your problems?

If so, I say go for it. But RAM and HDs are not either/or decisions. You're going to need both for very specific reasons.

But Dude, I want nothing more than for you to succeed. Keep in mind that the Mac Minis share video RAM with system RAM. That is but one of many considerations which could keep you at square one where serious DAW work is concerned. So, fully loaded, that 4GB doesn't go quite as far as it might seem on the surface.

Seriously, a used G5 2.5 or better would be a step up from the G4 and an overall better choice than a new Mac Mini for the needs you've expressed (imho, fwiw).

Just sayin'....

[mhschmieder]

Frodo, thanks, as it's not often I hear that starting out with more than 4 GB is critical. It's so hard for me to conceptualize since I only had 384 MB from 2001 through 2006 or so, and 864 MB since that time.

The Mac Mini does support 8 GB of RAM, but it's real expensive memory compared to what's in the iMac, so it's sounding like the benefit of being able to retrofit a Mac Mini to have two internal hard drives is way less beneficial than any of the current iMacs, most or all of which can go to 16 GB and fairly cheaply start at 8 GB.

In other words, from your experience, it sounds like people like us who do most of our work with huge streaming-based orchestral sample libraries, are better off prioritizing RAM above all else, if a compromise has to be made.

A used G5 is out of the question due to Intel-only compatibility issues of several critical products and updates, unfortunately. A 2008 used MacPro might be an option, but I have to re-check whether any of those models went to 16 GB. As we all know, last year's not-so-cheap entry-level MacPro model, now long in the tooth, only goes to 8 GB.

[newrigel]

I don't see why you just wouldn't buy a refurb MP and sell it when the new ones come out (if you NEED too). I'm not going to get a new one yet, I'm waiting to see what's going to happen first, but you could get a refurb for a good price right now! I don't know, I wouldn't go with a MM because the DSP cards are an integral part of my sound, now if it's not needed on your end then I can see but you'll still need more power... especially doing the VI orchestral thing.
Check this out!
This is exactly the way I went and it's been the most reliable box I've owned.
You can't beat that with your MM... by the time you put the SSD's in there you'd be walking the dog on it and the MP's are faster now with that new audio update people were whining about... seems to have helped some people and the benchmarks too (snow leo) so there you go. Lot's of room to grow there.

[Frodo]

Frodo, thanks, as it's not often I hear that starting out with more than 4 GB is critical. It's so hard for me to conceptualize since I only had 384 MB from 2001 through 2006 or so, and 864 MB since that time.

I was in the same boat mainly due to the limitations of the G4's overall. But things have changed so much where software demands more memory and the hardware has necessitated some rather dramatic updates where memory capacity is concerned. Within the past 5-6 years we've gone from 2GB limits to 8GB to 16GB to 32GB. While it may not be necessary for everyone to make use of all of that memory, it is clear that there are good reasons why the old memory ceiling had to be raised so dramatically.

MOTU recommends 1GB or more for DP5 and 2GB or more each for DP6 and DP7. That, of course, is just to accommodate DP alone and not third-party VIs and plugins.

Somewhere between 864MB and 32GB there is a crown and scepter with your name on it!

The Mac Mini does support 8 GB of RAM,

My apologies-- I keep forgetting that because Apple still cites that the two memory slots support up to 4GB without mentioning that the slots would support 4GB sticks.

but it's real expensive memory compared to what's in the iMac, so it's sounding like the benefit of being able to retrofit a Mac Mini to have two internal hard drives is way less beneficial than any of the current iMacs, most or all of which can go to 16 GB and fairly cheaply start at 8 GB.

Yes, the initial attractiveness of the Mac Mini's price and size quickly reveal diminishing returns for what your needs appear to suggest.

In other words, from your experience, it sounds like people like us who do most of our work with huge streaming-based orchestral sample libraries, are better off prioritizing RAM above all else, if a compromise has to be made.

If things like VSL, Kontakt 3.5 or later, or even PLAY were not part of the equation then the story might be a little different where memory needs are concerned. Each of those products can access (safely) 2GB *per instance* even when used as a plugin due to the secondary servers each uses outside of the DAW host. Other VIs will borrow from DP's 3-4GB limit. Of course if you are using Bidule or VEPro or want to run anything in standalone mode, it would still be wise to have more than 4GB installed for better performance.

That's not to overlook the need for dedicated hard drives for different types of streaming, be it DP audio or sample libraries.

The iMac is one all-in cost effective option, but there's an external hard drive concern. If you are using a firewire audio interface, it will take some testing to determine how many additional firewire drives can also be connected (daisy chained?) before all the devices compete for resources on a single buss.

A used G5 is out of the question due to Intel-only compatibility issues of several critical products and updates, unfortunately.

I should have clarified my mention of a G5: It wasn't a recommendation per se, but more of an contextual illustration of how much time has passed and how the technological roads have made very dramatic turns. Your memory concerns *could* be solved with G5 tower but you are absolutely right about the final days of PPC support.

A 2008 used MacPro might be an option, but I have to re-check whether any of those models went to 16 GB. As we all know, last year's not-so-cheap entry-level MacPro model, now long in the tooth, only goes to 8 GB.

The 2008 2.8 8-Core had 8 RAM slots and shows a capacity of 32GB. That means that the slots take 4GB sticks. Quad Core version also takes up to 32GB!! If you recall, we talked about this a few months ago and I wrote to a couple of memory companies about it which led at least one company to update its info. Incidentally, I've found 2 x 4GB sticks for this model for about $284.

If a new iMac was in your budget, then the 2.8 Quad (2008) might fall right in line. Given the need for a monitor on the MP, the offset would be the higher cost of RAM and limited drive expansion on the iMac.

Just thinking out loud here.

[mhschmieder]

Thanks, all. I didn't realise the perceived memory limitation of some of the MacPro models was in a similar "factoid" category as the limitations of the MacMini (for the record: "factoid" means something presented as fact that is untrue, but unfortunately its misuse in popular culture has led to it being revised to mean "a trivial fact of limited applicability").

A refurb might be in the cards, but that involves CA tax which in some counties is now close to 11%, which offsets most of the savings vs. buying new. That's the downside of Macs retaining their value (far beyond their actual worth, in my view, when comparing what you get with an old computer vs. what you get with a new one, both short-term and long-term).

FWIW, I have no interest in ever going the DSP route again. The PCIe slots would go unused. My plan is to switch from Firewire to USB for audio, as RME has pulled off a miracle and invented a bridging technology that allows their new Fireface 400 UC interface to perform much better than Firewire and slightly better than Hammerfall PCIe (which uses Firewire but with a different protocol).

What I need to find out is which models collapse USB and Firewire onto the same buss and what impact that has. Otherwise I am in good standing with several options to minimise or eliminate Firewire daisy-chaining, thus making it eassier to focus primarily on maxing the memory expansion possibilities.

[billf]

A refurb might be in the cards, but that involves CA tax which in some counties is now close to 11%, which offsets most of the savings vs. buying new

Have you researched whether or not this still applies if you buy from Amazon or B&H or Sweetwater, etc.? There might be the possibility of saving on sales tax and shipping costs.

[mhschmieder]

I thought refurbs were only sold by Apple.

[Pappy725]

Check out PowerMax in Oregon. I got my MBP (late 2008) last October (2009) for about 4-500 less than a new one. Still had the Applecare warranty. (3 months) Which I checked into right away since it wouldn't see my 828mkII and 8pre. Another story.

Resellers might be the way to go.

Pappy

[mhschmieder]

Hey, thanks, I had also forgotten about them. I'll give them a look.