Best way to slave my laptop to DP in my G5?

[FMiguelez]

.

When it comes to hardware, for some reason, I'm pretty dumb...

I want to slave my MacBook Pro to DP, which runs in my G5.
All I really need is that it responds to transport controls AND that it plays FROM the current wiper position with no lag and no latency, from whatever current location I'm seeing in DP.

In other words, I want to put the QT movie in the laptop in a way that it responds as if it were inside the G5.

I use a MIDI Time Piece USB.

How can I do this? Would I have to buy something extra? I hope not!

Thank you in advance, guys!

[Frodo]

From MOTU.com:

Phase Accurate Sync takes place when synchronizing to an external MTC or LTC source, and DAWs (Digtial Audio Workstations) locate and synchronize to the nearest sample location. If the address and the Word Clock are phase-locked, audio drift will not occur. Sample-accurate sync cannot take place since the sync source (LTC or MTC) cannot send a sample location. The tightest resolution from LTC or MTC is quarter-frame accuracy. Using the MTP AV or DTP with a LTC or MTC timebase will phase-lock devices and give you Phase Accurate Sync.

Sample Accurate Sync refers to the ability for machines to locate and synchronize to exact sample locations. ADAT Sync, Tascam Sync, and Control Track have the ability to send address and Word clock in one cable which will be accurate down to the sample location.

You can achieve sample-to-sample accuracy with Digital Performer, using any ADAT 9-pin sync source with any of our audio interfaces (the PCI-324, 424, and all of our FireWire interfaces have an ADAT 9-pin sync port). Sample accurate sync is also possible with a DA-38/DA-88 and a Digital Timepiece, using Control Track (PCI-324 only) or ADAT 9-pin.

Note that to have transport control of your devices from DP you would need a synchronizer like the MIDI Timepiece AV, which can receive MMC commands and transmit ADAT Sync commands.

Clearly, those notes have been around for a while since it mentions the PCI-324. However, you might want to check the DP5 manual, pp. 931-939.

While there shouldn't be any latency with sample-accurate sync, YMMV with how long it takes for the machines to lock to location. One thing to keep in mind is that your slave machine should always be in sync mode (the little clock icon on the Transport) so that it follows your master sync source.

[FMiguelez]

Clearly, those notes have been around for a while since it mentions the PCI-324. However, you might want to check the DP5 manual, pp. 931-939.

Thanks, Frodo. I will check the manual then.

I use MTC to sync the PCs when I need to use another sequencer there, but I always experience a very annoying lag of up to 2 seconds for them to lock. If this happens a few times it's alright, but it can turn to be very annoying after a while, especially when you need to constantly stop and play and stop and play and stop and play.

I'll see what the good ol' manual says about this.

I can definitely live with Phase Accurate Sync. I doubt my playing while watching the QT movie is more accurate than 1/4th of a frame

Note to self: It's time for me to change my negative paradigm I have regarding hardware. It is conceptually the same...

[Frodo]

I can definitely live with Phase Accurate Sync. I doubt my playing while watching the QT movie is more accurate than 1/4th of a frame

Are you being completely honest with yourself about living with Phase Accurate Sync? I really think you should go for Sample-Accurate Sync, but that's just mho. Still, that 2 second wait-til-lock might remain an issue.

Dude--- two seconds? I know it adds up. If you wait for 2 seconds often enough it amounts to some serious time over the course of a day. There was a time, in lieu of better gear, I got used to maybe 4 seconds of wait-to-lock time with each take.

But for the kind of performance you desire, you're talking about a serious PCI option-- or a MacPro model or both.

If you're on a PPC, have you tried reducing the res of the QT?

[FMiguelez]

.

Hey, Frodo.

I REALLY appreciate you taking the time to "challenge" me and point out your concern to me. That's EXACLY what friends do.

Having said that, I didn't explain myself well... my fault.

The only reason I think I can "live with" Phase Accurate Sync is because I'd be using two copies of the same QT movie. One inside the G5, my main system, to set all my markers, tempo map and hit points. This would be Sample Accurate... my main QT reference.
The second QT movie, the copy, would go to the laptop, and I would ONLY use it to play/record my keyboard performance WHILE I Tap the Tempo with my foot in the sustain pedal whlie I watch the movie. This is the one that would be Phase Accurate.

You may remember my reason for doing this:
When I slave DP to receive sync from Tap Tempo, the QT movie slows down or speeds up according to my tapping, and obviously one can not work like this for scoring!
I like playing with my hands while I use the sustain pedal for the tempo tapping while I watch the movie. I like doing this for non-rhythmic cues where the music and the scene lend themselves for nice melodies with lots of rubato.
I've tried many other solutions and work arounds for this, but they are not completely satisfactory.

So all I'm trying to do is make the QT movie play STEADILY despite my Tap Tempo. That's why I think slaving it "outside of the main DP session" should finally let me do this the way I like.

After I finish recording my initial melodies that way, I would just turn the laptop off and go back to the "real" QT movie inside the G5 (the one I used to set markers, etc.). That is why I mentioned 1/4th of a frame accuracy would be enough for my playing (but obviously not for composing a good tempo map).

In an ideal world, I should be able to do this in the same computer working with ONE QT movie normally, but for some very strange reason MOTU thinks it is good that the QT movie "follows your tempo" when slaved to receive sync from Tap Tempo.

I've written to them, many times, but they have not listened to me, and they have not given me a SINGLE reason as to why they think the current QT behaviour is desirable or even any good.

That is my issue and that is why I want a duplicated QT movie in the other computer.

Now, if you can suggest a better way to solve this, with one or 2 computers, even if I need to buy some extra gear to obtain Sample Accurate sync and avoid that annoying lag, I'm ALL EARS!

Again, thank you for being a friend, for pointing out "holes" in my theories, and for your honest opinion about my thinking, man

Having said all what I said, what do you think now?
Is there a better way?
Am I making any sense now? Wouldn't surprise me if I'm not

.

[Frodo]

.

You may remember my reason for doing this:
When I slave DP to receive sync from Tap Tempo, the QT movie slows down or speeds up according to my tapping, and obviously one can not work like this for scoring!

I like playing with my hands while I use the sustain pedal for the tempo tapping while I watch the movie. I like doing this for non-rhythmic cues where the music and the scene lend themselves for nice melodies with lots of rubato.
I've tried many other solutions and work arounds for this, but they are not completely satisfactory.

So all I'm trying to do is make the QT movie play STEADILY despite my Tap Tempo. That's why I think slaving it "outside of the main DP session" should finally let me do this the way I like.

FM, my friend:

Yes, this is a tricky bundle to balance here.

The cornerstone function of Tap Tempo is to change the tempo from one tap point to the next. There will be times when this feature is desired as it was designed to work. I know this is not the way you'd like for it to work, but it seems that what you're asking DP to do is to change the tempo but to have the movie just playback without following the tempo changes designated by the tap entries. This is inherently a play of opposing functions.

Perhaps what would serve you better with your desired *workflow* is to have a feature added which would enable you to Adjust Beats by tapping in real time where using the Adjust Beats feature will not change the performance of your movie. Certainly, this is no time for wishful thinking, but even if you had two computers in sync, Tap Tempo would still render the same result: the rate of the movie's playback will change.

The only thing I can think of at the moment is to create a series of strategic markers, punches and streamers, create a rough two-handed track of your score before getting too far with the full arrangement, then to use Adjust Beats so that your sequence will follow the movie without changing the rate at which the movie plays back. I am aware that this solves one problem with the result but creates another problem with your desired workflow. My concern here is that you get the results you want, otherwise you'll be spinning your wheels with an erratic movie.

You need not rough out the entire score at once, but you can work in smaller sections within the same sequence as long as you work from left to right. You can also reference the same movie in multiple sequences within a single project and then assemble the Chunks/Sequences later for the entire cue.

Maybe someone else has an easier approach, but at some point (and early in the process) the groundwork must be done for a workable tempo map before much else can be accomplished. I'm just not sure that Tap Tempo is the best tool in this particular case. Even if you used two machines, you'd want to slave the sequence to the movie, which would still require some sort of tempo map which would *follow* the movie rather than to alter its performance. If you are not experiencing any sort of problem with limited computer resources, I think using one machine is going to give you better overall performance: instant starts, no sync lock lag, etc.

I'll keep my eyes and ears on high alert for other possible solutions because I know the feeling of needing to work a certain way but not getting the results you need. It's quite a conundrum!

[pencilina]

Hi,

If you're not trying to map a rebato piece why not just tap a click onto a track with the QT mov playing (not slaved to tap tempo) then use that click track to create a tempo map. I forget the exact technique but its not to0 complicated. Something like you select the track you clicked and tell DP its the 1/4 note then DP makes a map.

Best

B

[FMiguelez]

I know this is not the way you'd like for it to work, but it seems that what you're asking DP to do is to change the tempo but to have the movie just playback without following the tempo changes designated by the tap entries. This is inherently a play of opposing functions.

EXACTLY!
And do you know what is even worse? That the ANSWER to all this is ALMOST right there in the QT movie. The little lock on top of the QT window... when unengaged, the movie runs totally independently of DP... the problem is that this includes transport control. So when you stop the sequence, the movie keeps running.

I've made tests using it unlocked, but it quickly turns distracting and annoying. Every time you stop, you have to take your hands away from the keyboard, lock the button again, and the impossible: to press play in DP AND the QT movie at the exact same time.
Obviously, one can't work like this, but the fact that there is a way to have the QT movie run independently from DP takes me ALMOST there, but not quite.

So the answer would be to have a similar option to let the movie run freely and independently, EXCEPT for transport control (play, stop, rewind, locate, etc).

... but even if you had two computers in sync, Tap Tempo would still render the same result: the rate of the movie's playback will change.

REALLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
How come?

I'm trying to wrap my Mexican brain around this....
Damn! System error. Kernel panic crash here....

I don't get it. If the computers are in sync via MTC (or LTC), why would one affect the other? Isn't the slave just synchronizing to the master every 24 (or whatever) MIDI clocks? And isn't the MIDI clock (or LTC) always running at the same rate no matter what?

So let me get this straight: Even if I managed to Sample Accurate Sync both computers to perfection, the slave computer would also slow down/speed up the other QT movie???

If so, then I'm glad you tell me about this BEFORE I go through the trouble of even trying to sync them! I was already checking out other options, even considering buying an extra MTP....

Please reconfirm this for me, Frodo. Did I get that right?

Maybe someone else has an easier approach, but at some point (and early in the process) the groundwork must be done for a workable tempo map before much else can be accomplished. I'm just not sure that Tap Tempo is the best tool in this particular case.

You may very well be right.
It's just that one of the many techniques I was taught at school to score a cue, and one that I really liked, involved a simple stopwatch and paper. For rubato cues, they taught us to use the stop-watch and compose melodies/phrases, sort of "fitting them" into X amount of seconds (by singing them before even touching a keyboard). Those X amount of seconds would be a "control point" in the written score, or a non-critical hit, or something.
My best cues at College were written using this technique... and naturally, I now tried to apply that with the vastly superior possibilities DP gives us now. I just never thought this would be an issue with DP and the QT movie changing speeds with Tap Tempo!

I'll keep my eyes and ears on high alert for other possible solutions because I know the feeling of needing to work a certain way but not getting the results you need. It's quite a conundrum!

I'd really appreciate this, my friend!

It has never made sense to me why DP changes the QT movie speed rate. How is that useful? How can THAT be a feature? The first time I noticed this in DP I thought I was dreaming a bad dream!

So, if I understood correctly, even having 100 computers wouldn't fix this the way I thought at first (the playing rate of the QT movies).

Then it sounds like the problem is MY approach and not DP's... and it would look like I will have to settle for my usual workarounds to be able to keep working with my "workflow".
To tell you the truth, my best work around is not THAT bad after all. It involves a few extra steps, but our good friend B.G. gave me a VERY COOL tip to speed up my workaround.
Check it out:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... op#p301307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So basically, I record my taps in a regular MIDI track as a constant note. Then I fool DP into thinking that those notes are tempos I'd tap using Adjust Beats, and it automatically turns them into tempo data by creating a MIDI loop!
My only complaint is that I can only play the music material with one hand (one of them is stuck tapping the tempo).

I did try making a Console to convert CC64 into a MIDI note (so I could use the hands to play and the foot to tap), but no luck. It doesn't really work very good.

So it looks like I will either, have to convince MOTU to implement a thing similar to the QT lock (but better), or grow an extra arm in my body, or simply change my ways...

But thank you for your patience and good will, Frodo

I would've felt pretty dumb and stupid buying and extra MTP (or whatever) and sync both machines and be all excited only to find out the QT "problem" still persists. You just saved me not only money, but an embarrassment with myself!

[FMiguelez]

.

If you're not trying to map a rebato piece why not just tap a click onto a track with the QT mov playing (not slaved to tap tempo) then use that click track to create a tempo map. I forget the exact technique but its not to0 complicated. Something like you select the track you clicked and tell DP its the 1/4 note then DP makes a map.

Yup. That's my current work around. I cited the link where B.G. taught me how to automate the process by "fooling DP", but it involves a few extra (unneeded steps).
Please see above (I think we posted at the same time).


Besides, I CAN NOT be the only person here, or the only DP user who likes working the way I describre... right?

There must be other people who use that same technique and make their DAW do it that way...

[pencilina]

I hear ya... I think the workaround is only one or two steps though. I'm still waiting for automatic successive take creation in MIDI loop recording (as with audio). Also, sorry for all my typos!

[pencilina]

I just checked that link- about the record beats and looping back a MIDI cable trick. I used to do that but MOTU implemented a simpler way to do it with a menu command which I did a couple times but I can't for the life of me find it right now, Maybe someone else can chime as to where that might be hiding.

[pencilina]

I found it!
region>extract tempo from MIDI (i'm on 5.13)

[Frodo]

... but even if you had two computers in sync, Tap Tempo would still render the same result: the rate of the movie's playback will change.

REALLY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
How come?

It's just the way Tap Tempo works. If you have one machine, you already know that the movie will play back erratically if it's locked to the Transport. On two machines the same conductor track mapped with Tap Tempo would sync the slave just as erratically.

I don't get it. If the computers are in sync via MTC (or LTC), why would one affect the other? Isn't the slave just synchronizing to the master every 24 (or whatever) MIDI clocks? And isn't the MIDI clock (or LTC) always running at the same rate no matter what?

It's the conductor track on the master that does it. Keeping two machines in sync is one thing, but if the conductor track is sending tempo changes every beat or so, then the two machines will stay in sync even if the result is "erratic".

So let me get this straight: Even if I managed to Sample Accurate Sync both computers to perfection, the slave computer would also slow down/speed up the other QT movie???

Yup. Same conductor track in both cases. It's not the type of sync you have. It's Tap Tempo vs using Adjust Beats at some point along the line where the movie playback speed won't be effected.

I use Adjust Beats a LOT to beat map audio people send me. In fact, I'm looking at 50 tracks to be beat mapped over the next few months to which a full orchestra must be added. I never use Tap Tempo

If so, then I'm glad you tell me about this BEFORE I go through the trouble of even trying to sync them! I was already checking out other options, even considering buying an extra MTP....

That was my biggest concern-- that you'd throw good money in the wrong direction.

Please reconfirm this for me, Frodo. Did I get that right?

I believe you have gotten it right, FM.

It has never made sense to me why DP changes the QT movie speed rate. How is that useful? How can THAT be a feature? The first time I noticed this in DP I thought I was dreaming a bad dream!

Tap Tempo may indeed not be most useful with a movie in tow. If you have pre-recorded audio (or a movie) and you need the pre-recorded audio or the movie to follow your MIDI sequence, then Tap Tempo will be useful. But in your case, you want the opposite to happen-- for the movie to play back unaffected and for the sequence to follow the movie.

Even if your tempo taps are as close to being accurate as humanly possible, there could still be an unwanted and imperceptible frame variant involved even if it *appears* that everything is working just fine.

So, if I understood correctly, even having 100 computers wouldn't fix this the way I thought at first (the playing rate of the QT movies).

I have to agree with that-- if Tap Tempo is at play. 99 computers would slave to the one single master computer sending that very same Tap Tempo conductor track/transport data to all the other machines.

Then it sounds like the problem is MY approach and not DP's... and it would look like I will have to settle for my usual workarounds to be able to keep working with my "workflow".
To tell you the truth, my best work around is not THAT bad after all. It involves a few extra steps, but our good friend B.G. gave me a VERY COOL tip to speed up my workaround.
Check it out:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... op#p301307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Fantastic and clever of BG, I must say. Wow. That's why I love this place.

But thank you for your patience and good will, Frodo

It's always a pleasure, FM-- no patience or good will was involved on this end. Easy as pie with you.

I must say, though, I like your concept for a workflow with "tapping tempos". Even if Tap Tempo itself isn't the best tool for what you're doing, it WOULD be great to see tappable tempos available or importable in the Adjust Beats function. But using that MIDI loop to "tap" tempos is really ingenious.

I would've felt pretty dumb and stupid buying and extra MTP (or whatever) and sync both machines and be all excited only to find out the QT "problem" still persists. You just saved me not only money, but an embarrassment with myself!

No, you didn't need to spend any money-- and we're not talking small money, either.

¡Por favor no se sienta avergonzado!

I'm also watching pencillina's smart posts very closely as well. Good stuff, all of it.

[FMiguelez]

¡Por favor no se sienta avergonzado!

Bueno. Está bien. Pero TU me salvaste de mi vergüenza y mucho dinero!

Gracias, amigo!

And this is funny. Now that I realize there is NO way to do what I wanted, I feel surprisingly more "at ease". Like I can finally drop it and just try other things instead

I found it!
region>extract tempo from MIDI (i'm on 5.13)

That is FANTASTIC news!
That will save me the time to create the physical MIDI loop, and will be able to use that work around so much faster!

I can't wait to try that out. Thanks for the tip, man!

Actually, my hands will be FULL of things to try tomorrow just by the tips I got during the weekend right in this forum (regarding this topic and the "Unmasking in mixing "one).

Frodo's, Penicillina's, Kubi's, Phil O's, Newriegel's, Bongo_X's, Shooshie's, mesaken's, waitsongs'.... Wow! I'll be busy tomorrow!

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 72#p337338" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you all, guys.
I LOVE this place!

[Frodo]

Bueno. Está bien. Pero TU me salvaste de mi vergüenza y mucho dinero!

Gracias, amigo!

De nada, mi muchacho. Es mi placer de ayudarle. Sempre!

Considere un partido con el dinero salvado.