7.1, a different animal.

[Tobor]

That was before I installed the new FW driver, which hopefully will remedy that issue as well.

Hmm. I installed the new FW driver as well. Theoretically it shouldn't have any effect on my system at all, since I'm using an Apogee Rosetta on this machine which uses the Apple FW driver, but so far, not a single crash on 7.1 since installing the new drivers. Maybe MOTU tucked some stuff in there besides just the driver...don't know. That's why I was asking about your FW hardware in another thread. Well I'm keeping my fingers crossed. The process is slow because I'm only seeing a crash every couple of days. I could go 2 or 3 days without a crash and think I'm home free, but I won't be happy until I'm seeing zero crashes over an extended period. (Which, by the way, I have seen in 7.02 so far.)

Keep on rockin'

Phil

Hi Phil,

I had to go back to square one after massive crashes returned. Weird because right after I installed the driver everything was great, I thought I had it licked (and posted all over the forum crowing to that effect).

I rebooted my computer the next day only to find things worse than before, even my formerly rock solid 6.02 unable to keep a charge. I finally began to suspect a corrupted Drumcore 3 as a possible culprit and after reinstalling and examining and loading into new files yesterday I was quite stable for awhile. That was yesterday.

Cover me, I'm going in again now...... film at 11.

Tobor

[Phil O]

Hmm, I'm still crash free. This isn't making any sense. I ain't complaining, but I'd like to know what's going on.

Phil

[Phil O]

[repeatable crash]

Here's a sequence that causes an unexpected quit in DP 7.1 every time on my system:

Launch DP
Open DP Preferences
Go to Audio Plug-ins
Turn on or off a plug-in or multiple plug-ins
Click Done
Click OK at the prompt
Open DP Preferences a second time

AT this point the preferences window will start to open, then the program will quit.

Can anyone duplicate this?

Thanks,
Phil

[Tobor]

Hi Phil,

I don't have 7.1 on my main system anymore due to circumstances described above.

I will bring you up to date in this thread what has happened for me. I reinstalled driver 1.4.20, which had been working seamlessly, and then uninstalled and reinstalled 6.02 and 7.02. Both are running great, booting fast and no crashes. Except: I'd been using Drumcore 3 as my crash example. Oddly enough, Drumcore 3 continues to crash occasionally on rewind in 6.02 (which it never ever did before), but does not crash now in 7.02. 7.02, by the by, seems to have the upgraded Custom 59 preamp but I have no presets for any of the new guitar plugs.

I spent yesterday messing with my MacBook, which still has 7.1 installed. 6.02 and 7.02 are working great, 7.02 (because of 7.1) has access to all the new guitar chain presets. 7.1 also seemed to work well in limited use. I held my breath and fired up Drumcore 3. To my surprise it took rewind without crashing, but now the 'bug' with DC3/7.1 is that you can change patterns on playback in DC3 and they will play, but the graphic display of the original pattern doesn't change. Weird. I know 7.1 crashed on my MacBook the first time I used it, but can't remember exactly what I was doing.

I am tempted to reinstall 7.1 on my iMac, and hope it doesn't affect the performance of my other DP versions like last time. It would be nice to set things up in 7.1 with preset chains, etc., then go back to 7.02 to actually work on the tune. Or- can I custom install just the presets of 7.1?

Anyway, that's the latest.... I want to know what it is exactly that drivers do, but may start another thread for that.

Tobor

[Tobor]

I think I'm going to stop posting for awhile. I can't make sense of the rhyme or reason of this.

I just mentioned that my DC3 issue was finally gone in 7.02, as it played back on rewind flawlessly for hours on a tune the other day.

Just now I booted up 7.02, same file, DC3 crashed DP on the first rewind. I just don't get it.

Tobor

[Shooshie]

Don't beat your head against the wall. When a VI is crashing all the time, stop using it. If you have a version of DP in which it still runs, you can use that, or you can use it just to add DC3 tracks, which you then freeze as audio before running in DP7.x. I'm not being facetious. The sad fact is that VI's like reverbs, compressors, and EQ's, come and they go. Sometimes they are out of commission for a few years before someone gets around to fixing them.

Remember, there are hundreds of VI's that DO work in DP7.x, and probably a dozen that do not. The first thing people tend to do is blame MOTU. I'm sure that once in a while they are genuinely to blame for a mistake that causes certain 3rd-party software to crash, but there is no possible way to test extensively with every known VI or plugin. From 25 years of experience with MOTU, I can tell you that their programmers are NOT sloppy. (not that anyone has insinuated that, but I'm just making a point) It's just the way of software that when you have a hundred companies writing stuff to a protocol that's supposed to make it all work together, you're definitely going to get some that cause it to fail instead of work. Perhaps they will get together and find the problem, and maybe it will be an "aha moment" for both parties. Or maybe one party just goofed.

I've got two or three VI's sitting basically unused right now, because they have not been updated for Snow Leopard yet. Two of them are by MOTU!!! (MOTU Symphonic Instrument and MachFive.2) I can use them in a pinch, but they are uncomfortable to use at this time. The news is that new versions are on the way, but "when" is anyone's guess.

So, if DC3 is keeping you from getting anything done, then set it aside. Start writing letters and making phone calls until you get someone interested in fixing it. That's right; the responsibility for getting it fixed rests at least partly on the user who finds the problem.

But having said all that, let me also remind you that the next guy may be using DC3 without a problem. It could be something ELSE on your hard drive that is causing the disconnect between DP and DC3, but lots of luck finding it. It's possible, but usually requires using a pristine system, installed from scratch (nothing copied from the previous one).

This isn't rocket science. It's much more complicated than rocket science. The computers that took us to the moon would fit in a couple of iPhone apps. Even with NASA's budget, I doubt that we could get a DAW that could run everything and never crash.

I'm TOTALLY sympathetic with the problems you've been having, Tobor. I'm not making light of them. I'm just saying there are limits to what one person can do, and there's a time to move on. DC3 will be back some day. Maybe tomorrow. But until they (all parties involved) get it running again, set it aside! Find something else that does work. Or go back to what did. It's sometimes very painful. I know.

Shooshie

[Tobor]

Remember, there are hundreds of VI's that DO work in DP7.x, and probably a dozen that do not. The first thing people tend to do is blame MOTU. I'm sure that once in a while they are genuinely to blame for a mistake that causes certain 3rd-party software to crash, but there is no possible way to test extensively with every known VI or plugin. From 25 years of experience with MOTU, I can tell you that their programmers are NOT sloppy. (not that anyone has insinuated that, but I'm just making a point) It's just the way of software that when you have a hundred companies writing stuff to a protocol that's supposed to make it all work together, you're definitely going to get some that cause it to fail instead of work.

.... Find something else that does work. Or go back to what did. It's sometimes very painful. I know.

Shooshie

I think through all of this, especially in today's forum climate, I've bent over backwards to NOT blame MOTU. I agree with most everything you've said. The way that the endless upgrade game works, it's just smart to just stop adding things to your system at some point when you realize you're a couple of OS systems behind and your computer is at the lower end of the power spectrum. But it's hard to turn a deaf ear to the latest and greatest and so it goes. You take things one step too far and then it's time for dreaded uninstalls and reinstalls. I mean, I GET this.

My little frustration with the DC3 thing was that it would work as usual for a session and then crash the next. It just seemed so close to fixable. Then the added frustration of not being able to restore the version that was previously so solid (I know, clone a drive at some point). Even though I do not 'blame' MOTU, and am certainly not 'mad' at MOTU- really- the fact remains that for the time being I can't seem to go back to my previous state since installing 7.

LIve and learn, and sometimes you learn a lot! When something like this happens you get a lot of great tips from a lot of great people on this forum that will help solve this problem or some other problem down the line. Also with DC3, I really haven't lost anything because Drumcore 2.5 still works just fine rewired, like it always did.

It's obvious that a few basic things are different with 7.1- I was just about to reinstall 7.1 for another go-round but may wait to see what Mr. Sneed discovers with the memory thread first.

I'm certainly eyeing the latest generation of Mac offerings with interest and will be on Snow Leopard before too long I'm sure. Meanwhile, since there are many of us here with less than the latest and greatest, please be patient while we try to work WITH MOTU to sort out these system-specific issues.

Where there is endless progress there is endless transition. It never ends....it never ends....it never ends. There will never be a point where everything works for everybody. There will always be a need for the troubleshooting forum.

Thank you to MOTUNATION and to all the great people who help.

Tobor

[Shooshie]

Tobor, I'm kind of in a hurry, and don't have time to re-read the thread, but did you trash preferences at some point? It sure SOUNDS like a preferences-related incident.

Shoosh

[Tobor]

Tobor, I'm kind of in a hurry, and don't have time to re-read the thread, but did you trash preferences at some point? It sure SOUNDS like a preferences-related incident.

Shoosh

As a matter of fact, I found every MOTU/DP related preference I could (and Drumcore preferences as well) and trashed them earlier today.

Same story. One file performs perfectly, the next exhibits the crash behavior. If DC3 just flat refused to perform it would be easier to give up the chase than the fact that it plays along with the sequence great, I can change patterns at will in perfect sync, but when I hit rewind to beginning it crashes everything.

I even reinstantiated the plug-in in the problem files and made sure the DC3 preferences were good. Hate to say this, of course, but I fired up Lo....c 8 and it still works there (fled in terror immediately). Still works in Live too.

I don't want to beat this horse forever, and it could well be specific to my system, yet I do think that this is a clue to a little tweak that needs to be addressed or compensated for, whether externally (MOTU) or internally, and that will make sense to somebody.....weird because much of the rest of 7.02 I've been able to explore seems to be very stable on my machine.

Tob

[Shooshie]

Have you talked to the people who make DC3? I've worked with plugin programmers before, testing until we found a version that wouldn't crash. It's an interesting process. Programming is an art sort of like music in a way. Each programmer has a style, and each can read his own code easily, but has trouble with someone else's.

If you could get someone interested in rewrites, it might get you just what you want.

[David Polich]

Have you talked to the people who make DC3? I've worked with plugin programmers before, testing until we found a version that wouldn't crash. It's an interesting process. Programming is an art sort of like music in a way. Each programmer has a style, and each can read his own code easily, but has trouble with someone else's.

If you could get someone interested in rewrites, it might get you just what you want.

Totally agree - this should be Submersible's problem to solve. DP has often
been the last DAW that companies test their plug-ins and VI's on. Get them on the case.

[ccrane]

I've got two or three VI's sitting basically unused right now, because they have not been updated for Snow Leopard yet. Two of them are by MOTU!!! (MOTU Symphonic Instrument and MachFive.2) I can use them in a pinch, but they are uncomfortable to use at this time. The news is that new versions are on the way, but "when" is anyone's guess. Shooshie

Hi Shooshie,
I know this may not be the proper forum, but is Mach5 2.0.2 giving you problems in Snow Leopard?
I'm finally ready to take the DP 7.1/SL plunge- though I definitely need a workable Mach5 when recalling previous projects.

MOTU site says 2.02 should work in SL. (See copy/paste below)

Did not see specific reference to this in the Mach5 forum.
Thanks for any info you may have.
Chris

From MOTU.com:
"The following versions or later are required for Mac OS X v10.6 support:
Digital Performer 6.02
AudioDesk 3.0
MX4 2.2
MachFive 2.0.2
Symphonic Instrument 1.1.3
Electric Keys 1.0.1
BPM 1.0.4
Volta 1.0.4"

[Shooshie]

Yeah, I think you're right. It works, but it doesn't freeze. Isn't that the problem? And the Stand-Alone version doesn't work in Snow Leopard. Same for MSI and originally for Ethno, but I think they fixed that in Ethno.

Shooshie

[KEVORKIAN]

Tobor,

You may want to try hosting Drumcore in Bidule via Rewire.

I haven't been using Drumcore 3 much lately, but I do host all of my drum VIs (Superior, Addictive Drums, SSD/Kontakt) in Bidule and I believe this contributes heavily to the stability of my system. I have yet to crash DP 7.1 during a session.

[Tobor]

Tobor,

You may want to try hosting Drumcore in Bidule via Rewire.

I haven't been using Drumcore 3 much lately, but I do host all of my drum VIs (Superior, Addictive Drums, SSD/Kontakt) in Bidule and I believe this contributes heavily to the stability of my system. I have yet to crash DP 7.1 during a session.

Thanks Kevorkian, I still plan on tackling Bidule at some point. I actually got through to MOTU tech support yesterday and had a nice lengthy informative chat about many of the issues, real and imagined, that have sprung up with 7.1, drivers, etc. Very pleasant. Interested to see if they can find anything of value in my crash logs.

Since then I have tried to get my 'mind right', with much success. I reinstalled 7.1. Largely ditched Drumcore 3 for Drumcore 2.5 in Rewire mode, which actually works better in some regards like stopping along with DP when you hit stop, and continuing to play when you hit rewind- what a concept!

I'm starting to find 7.1 very smooooth and very likeable now. Fun. Powerful. Productive.

Tobor