Wallander, WIVI, WOW!

[Shooshie]

It doesn't show up in the Instruments section? Go to /Library/Audio/Plug-ins/Components/ and look for WIVI.Component. If it is there, you should find the VI in the Add Instruments menu. If it's not there, then you might first try running the installer again and see if you accidentally ran a custom install. If not, then one of us will have to ask Arne Wallander what's up with his demo installers.

Shooshie

Thanks, Shooshie. The problem was that I tried installing it on my VI drive; once I moved everything to my main hard drive (not my favorite idea though) it worked great. Haven't put it through any huge tests, but so far it sounds great. Thanks for the tip.

- Neil

Great. The reason it doesn't hurt to install this on your main drive is that unlike a sample library, these are models. I have 170 Wallander instruments which -- in total -- occupy 584.5 Megabytes. By comparison, my Ivory Piano occupies 44.04 GIGAbytes. My Stradivari Solo Violin, by Garritan (actually by Lucato and Tommasini) occupies 788 Megabytes, and that's for one single violin!

Compare VSL Special Edition, which has (I think) 113 instruments: 57.51 GB. Wallander, by comparison, is only .58GB -- approximately the decimal points of the VSL installation. VSL, then, is 114 times larger and 57 instruments fewer.

Do the math, and the actual ratio is (if I did it correctly) Wallander is .51% the size of Vienna on a per-instrument basis. Let me restate that: Wallander's instruments average one-half of one percent the size of VSL's.

This is also why you can put darn-near as many Wallander instruments in there as you want, and a Mac Pro will handle them all without flinching.

I don't think I have to make that case any more significant than that. This is the difference between having a very responsive and realistic orchestra (winds and brass, so far) on one computer, vs. setting up a computer network with Vienna Ensemble Pro, of Plogue Bidule, or some other peer-to-peer network, of massive hard drive storage, and after all that, accepting that you have very limited control over the behaviors of the instruments of a sample-based library.

The two exceptions that I know of were the Gofriller Cello and the Strad Solo Violin by Lucato and Tommasini, sold briefly by Garritan. These were very large single instruments (one half GB and 3/4 GB, respectively), but they gave the most realistic control over the instruments of any sample-based library. Those instruments feel like real instruments, because they had carefully matched all the sample layers (velocity layers) so that they matched phase exactly, plus they made them so they would fade between velocity layers as you changed dynamics up or down. Nobody else has done that. But they retracted their instruments from Garritan, and I have not seen them on the market since. I was lucky to grab them while they were there.

So, that leaves us back at Wallander. In addition to sounding as good as Lucato's and Tommasini's brilliant sample-based libraries, they are a fraction of a percent as large. People should be amazed at WIVI, and I repeatedly am amazed that they miss the point entirely. Rather than add a smidgen of EQ to get the timbre they want, they instead go to another product with a fraction of the control, and 200 times the footprint.

Oh well... you can lead a horse to water...

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

At first I thought these were entry-level libraries, but then I came to understand that they replace the earlier libraries and expand upon them considerably.

I just bought and installed Saxes 2 a few weeks ago, so am not entirely clear on my options from here, but am reeling from the backlog after a few days in the Southland (only one of which was spent at NAMM) and too many nights working until 2am (day job, not recording/mixing). It may be awhile before I can take the time to carefully study the new WIVI paths.

Interesting that he includes Recorders, which most vendors skip altogether.

[Shooshie]

Basically, you can go to the "Products" page and choose the Woodwinds bundle, then go through the motion of upgrading: input your ID (email address) and possibly a password; not sure if there is one or not. It finds the record of your previously purchased bundles (Saxes - 2, for instance) and subtracts a certain amount from the total. Since these are fantastically reduced in price, the amount it subtracts is not the same amount you already paid, but the proportion of the total that you already own. Did that make sense? Well, just go try it, and you'll see that it's quite simple. Then you can choose to proceed or wait for later. At those prices, I said heck with waiting, I wanted to grab them before he changed his mind and went back up!

Since you already own a bundle, you already have the Professional Edition of the WIVI interface. So that's $500 off the top of the high-end choice: you don't have to repurchase the Pro interface, because you already own the best one available, and you'll always be on the Pro-end of the upgrade path. All the bundles you currently own or buy new will function at the high-end. I'd guess that you would get the entire woodwind/saxes set for $350-$375 at this point. That's assuming that the only set you own is the one sax bundle you mentioned. I paid less because I owned two WW bundles (1 WW and 1 Sax), still but a fraction of the total WW's available.

---

One has to ask "why is he doing this?" The answer is simple, I think. He is working on the strings. I think that although he's got a fantastic string model coming up the pipeline, sales have slowed due to the economic crisis, and he needs operating capital to finish it. (opinion only; not confirmed by any Wallander source) So, he puts out a bargain now for those who already own a bundle or two, but who can't afford the whole works. This brings in an infusion of cash, and I think he knows that when he puts out the strings, a lot of people are going to want to buy the entire orchestra: strings, brass, and woodwinds. Imagine an entire orchestra running on a single Mac, without even topping out the CPU, and all less than a GB or two in total footprint! Depends on the quality of his strings, of course, but he'll definitely sell more of the winds when the strings are also available. People like to have entire orchestral collections under one roof.

That's what I think.

Shoosh

[oldecuriosity]

Great. The reason it doesn't hurt to install this on your main drive is that unlike a sample library, these are models. I have 170 Wallander instruments which -- in total -- occupy 584.5 Megabytes. By comparison, my Ivory Piano occupies 44.04 GIGAbytes. My Stradivari Solo Violin, by Garritan (actually by Lucato and Tommasini) occupies 788 Megabytes, and that's for one single violin!

Compare VSL Special Edition, which has (I think) 113 instruments: 57.51 GB. Wallander, by comparison, is only .58GB -- approximately the decimal points of the VSL installation. VSL, then, is 114 times larger and 57 instruments fewer.

Do the math, and the actual ratio is (if I did it correctly) Wallander is .51% the size of Vienna on a per-instrument basis. Let me restate that: Wallander's instruments average one-half of one percent the size of VSL's.

This is also why you can put darn-near as many Wallander instruments in there as you want, and a Mac Pro will handle them all without flinching.

I don't think I have to make that case any more significant than that. This is the difference between having a very responsive and realistic orchestra (winds and brass, so far) on one computer, vs. setting up a computer network with Vienna Ensemble Pro, of Plogue Bidule, or some other peer-to-peer network, of massive hard drive storage, and after all that, accepting that you have very limited control over the behaviors of the instruments of a sample-based library.

Shooshie,

All great points . . . I agree. I think we're getting close to the point where models will get the same result of their sample-based counterparts (if not better) because of their responsiveness due to the smaller footprint. Furthermore, it doesn't hurt that the Wallander demo sounds awesome anyway.

By the way - I've always enjoyed your thoughtful and thorough posts . . . thanks for all your help over the years (without you even knowing it)!

- Neil

[michkhol]

I'm still working on the VSL version of the Strauss Serenade demo (don't have much time) to compare it to the Wallander's one.

Your comparison will tell you nothing unless you do both. Did you do the Wallander version? Assuming you did, then it will be educational, but you would already know even at this point. The comparison of CREATING them is the real test. You can make either one sound pretty good, but at what expense of time? Wallander's instruments sound passable even when applied to my worst sequencing. But when I actually record with them... I really don't think any other library in existence can stand up to that test. They lay down like the real thing... first time. Little or no editing is necessary.

Shoosh

Here is the catch: I don't have the Wallander software and I don't play winds. The only way of comparison would be to compare it to the demo on the Wallander web site. I presume that the demo track shows the best you can get from the library otherwise what's the point to put it there in the first place?
I need realistic sound and so far the demo has not been sounding convincing enough. I cannot argue about ease of use for obvious reasons, my point is that the cost of entry has been just made higher. I wish I could play winds to appreciate the advantages you are talking about.

[Shooshie]

While I think the Strauss Serenade demo is nice, I don't think it comes close to capturing the best that WIVI can do. The problem I perceive among the demos is that there are a lot of well-meaning people creating them, but I'm just not hearing any who are on the level of Jay Bacal or Guy whatsisname (no disrespect intended; I just can't remember his name) doing the VSL demos. It's an art, not a science. The act of doing it doesn't necessarily make it great. Even the VSL demos take a swan dive downward in quality once you get out of the realm of a tiny handful of people at the top of that hierarchy.

This is a slow process. I began looking for great instruments in 1987 and had to program my own for DX7 and other Yamaha instruments. Each step of the way I've been able to get closer, but it was not until Wallander that they actually lit up in my hands, responded to my breath, and suddenly there was a real instrument playing back at me as I "played" it via MIDI. VSL is pretty. Its instruments are all pretty. But they DO NOT play like real instruments. Period. And since that's the pinnacle of sampled technology, it's the end of that story. Wallander is the beginning of a new story.

Now, in order for Wallander to become perceived as the jewel that it is, it will require people of the highest order of musicianship to get their hands on them and use them. That's already happening, but they aren't posting demos at Wallander's forum. They're recording soundtracks to movies and tv shows or background tracks to albums. But you'll start hearing more about this in the coming years. It's a recursive feedback system. Once a few of the higher-level artists start talking about what they've done with Wallander, and post their work as demos, then everyone else will start finding out what you can do.

From 20-odd years of programming sounds, I understand Wallander's interface pretty well, but I'd be lost in it without the tool-tips (Command-Click, I think, on any tool or feature) But I know how to get the sounds I want out of them. There is not any question about their capabilities. Only about teaching people how to use them. This is new to people who want to push a patch button and have the perfect sound. These don't work that way. You sculpt your sound until you get the timbre, response, reflections, and anomalies (smears, attacks, jitter, key noise, etc.) that you want. Then you save that instrument and use it in all your ensembles as you work on more instruments. With 170 instruments, I'm not ever going to reach the end of its potential, but it will be fun trying.

Anyway, once I get some things I don't mind posting, I'll post them. The only demos I have now are my "first-impression" pieces. All that I've done since then is building toward something I'd be proud to put my name on as finished works, but you just don't post the in-betweens. I don't mind posting something semi-crappy and saying "that was my first time," but I don't want to post something nearly-there, and say "that was my 32nd time, but wait till you hear #33!" I'm having productivity problems here, so when I resume, I expect to be able to finalize a few things that might give you a better idea of what *I think* one can do with Wallander.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I need realistic sound and so far the demo has not been sounding convincing enough. I cannot argue about ease of use for obvious reasons, my point is that the cost of entry has been just made higher. I wish I could play winds to appreciate the advantages you are talking about.

You're right. I didn't think about the fact that you can no longer just buy a clarinet or oboe for $150. My entry into Wallander was gangbusters about 2 years ago. I bought $769 worth of instruments, which got me the entire Woodwinds bundle plus trumpet and horn. Later I got the saxes at a special price. But when he offered this deal, I just went ahead and got them all.

There are hidden costs as well. The WIVI Pro Interface is $500, and you really don't have total control over all your timbres and things until you get it.

Then there are controllers. If you don't have expression pedals, breath controller, or some other tried-and-true expression controller, these instruments won't be much more full of life than VSL or any other sample library. I have a Roland FC300 footpedal board with a number of footswitches plus two expression pedals. In addition to that, I have the Yamaha BC headset for playing with keyboard. But my main MIDI axe is my Yamaha WX-5. It's expensive getting set up for expressive performance. The difficulty is convincing someone that a) it's worth it to do so, and b) that Wallander WILL pay off if you do.

I stake my reputation on both a and b, for anyone willing to take the plunge, learn to use the BC headset with their keyboard (it's actually fun and as easy as singing while you play), and make an investment in these instruments. Still, if you buy everything you need, it's a fraction of what it would cost to achieve the same results in VSL. Nor would I want to be without VSL; there are things there which are amazing, and I have the skill to make them work. But the disappointment of trying to perform music (real-time, as an orchestral musician) in VSL is the same story I've fought for over 20 years. For me, Wallander is like seeing the clouds open up and a shaft of beautiful sunlight comes pouring through onto the valley below, after 20+ years of rain.

Shooshie

[mhschmieder]

Shooshie,

Thanks so much for simplifying the upgrade path choices and what they mean.

As for pricing, do you have reason to believe that might change very soon?

This week is critical for me, as Apple is expected to announce new gear mid-week, and I have dibs on a local used Kurzweil PC3X.

I'm inclined to wait a bit on the WIVI upgrade unless it's going to disappear or get pricier soon.

[Shooshie]

Who can say? This pricing was a bolt from the blue. I went to buy some more instruments and, Voilá! I was able to get them ALL! I had no idea that was coming. So, would he change it again? Probably, if he saw reason to. But I think it'll stay like this at least until he gets the strings made.

Shoosh

[michkhol]

I stake my reputation on both a and b, for anyone willing to take the plunge, learn to use the BC headset with their keyboard (it's actually fun and as easy as singing while you play), and make an investment in these instruments. Still, if you buy everything you need, it's a fraction of what it would cost to achieve the same results in VSL. Nor would I want to be without VSL; there are things there which are amazing, and I have the skill to make them work. But the disappointment of trying to perform music (real-time, as an orchestral musician) in VSL is the same story I've fought for over 20 years. For me, Wallander is like seeing the clouds open up and a shaft of beautiful sunlight comes pouring through onto the valley below, after 20+ years of rain.

Shooshie

I see your point. Wallander's specialty is real time performance. I tried to emulate it in VSL by assigning the velocity crossfader to the mod wheel. I tried the oboe patch, and while I could clearly hear the velocity layer switching, I also noticed the timbre change like in real life. The oboe patch in WIVI demo does not show any timbre change. Is it by design or it is the demo limitation?

[mhschmieder]

This is a good time to remind people, if they're patient, that there is an ocarina-style wooden breath controller being developed by Virtual Instruments magazine, which hopefully will eventually see the light of day. It will be far more expressive than the BC3a, easier to use, and have more robust cabling and connections.

[Shooshie]

I stake my reputation on both a and b, for anyone willing to take the plunge, learn to use the BC headset with their keyboard (it's actually fun and as easy as singing while you play), and make an investment in these instruments. Still, if you buy everything you need, it's a fraction of what it would cost to achieve the same results in VSL. Nor would I want to be without VSL; there are things there which are amazing, and I have the skill to make them work. But the disappointment of trying to perform music (real-time, as an orchestral musician) in VSL is the same story I've fought for over 20 years. For me, Wallander is like seeing the clouds open up and a shaft of beautiful sunlight comes pouring through onto the valley below, after 20+ years of rain.

Shooshie

I see your point. Wallander's specialty is real time performance. I tried to emulate it in VSL by assigning the velocity crossfader to the mod wheel. I tried the oboe patch, and while I could clearly hear the velocity layer switching, I also noticed the timbre change like in real life. The oboe patch in WIVI demo does not show any timbre change. Is it by design or it is the demo limitation?

That's a very subjective question! The French/American school of oboe playing, through Marcel Tabuteau and John DeLancie, tried to minimize that timbre change and make it a linear change from bottom to top. Then you've got the London style that was so prevalent when Evelyn Rothwell (Lady Barbarolli) was principle, where the timbre changes on nearly every note! What I hear in WIVI without doing anything to it is more of the French/American style, and the timbre does change, just not so out front like some other styles .

Here's an oboe from WIVI. It has a big solo at 3:29. This is how I want an oboe to sound, more or less. (The sax is from MOTU Symphonic Instrument, and the flute is an early one from WIVI that needed a lot of adjusting, but I never did it. I will be doing this piece over with all winds from WIVI in the coming months)
Villa-Lobos, Sextour Mystique

You can see what you think of that.

As for adjusting a timbre change on every note, I really do not know. It might be possible, or it might not. I've never had reason to try it, preferring the French/American sound personally.

shoosh

[michkhol]

Here's an oboe from WIVI. It has a big solo at 3:29. This is how I want an oboe to sound, more or less. (The sax is from MOTU Symphonic Instrument, and the flute is an early one from WIVI that needed a lot of adjusting, but I never did it. I will be doing this piece over with all winds from WIVI in the coming months)
Villa-Lobos, Sextour Mystique

You can see what you think of that.

I wish I could hear it but unfortunately the link is not working. I have a speculative comment on this but I'll hold it until I hear the piece.

[Shooshie]

Fixed, and repeated here fore convenience:


Villa-Lobos, Sextour Mystique

Oboe solo begins at 3:29

Shoosh

[michkhol]

Fixed, and repeated here fore convenience:


Villa-Lobos, Sextour Mystique

Oboe solo begins at 3:29

Shoosh

Thanks! I listened to it closely and here are my personal impressions. I will be speaking about oboe only. First, the musical expression is unmatched to any sample-based library I ever heard. I hear your point now about playing the Wallander live. My only nitpicking is that sometimes it sounds between flute and oboe and lacks that distinctive nasal character. Maybe it was the particular model that was chosen for the piece, I don't know. Now about that speculative comment. It still stands. The oboe sounds too perfect.

Here is a brief digression about computer "randomness". True random events do not exist in the computing environment. If a computer generate a "random" sequence, it may behave like one, but in fact it is not. Because the computer will generate exactly the same sequence under the same conditions, again and again. That's why it is called pseudorandom and no other kind of sequences exists in the computer world. That's why no computer-generated sequences are used for encryption, usually times between pressing several keys (human factor = natural randomness) are used for that purpose.

Unfortunately human ear is very sensitive (mine at least) to any repetitive patterns and I don't know how many computer tricks are necessary to fool the human brain. So far sampled instruments sound more natural to me, but unfortunately they lack expression due to physical limits (memory, CPU, sampling sessions, etc.) Instrument modeling is indeed very exciting and promising but so far it lacks natural randomness. Actually I had the same impression after listening to Pianoteq. Expressive but not natural enough.

Interesting that the latest Zenph re-performance of Rachmaninoff didn't use any sampled or modeled instruments but a real piano with the mechanical playing system.