Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

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SixStringGeek
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by SixStringGeek »

newrigel wrote:If you want to play the stuff in 8 computers then you either play it on one @ a time or you rip it (COPY) to each HD on your boxes... So what's wrong with giving you the ability to play it on 5 and not 8? When you buy a CD does it come with 8 copies?
That's not exactly the issue. Its more like, I buy a CD but it only plays in some CD players I own and not others. I can copy my ITunes library onto every computer I own (and I do - if only for backup purposes). But only 5 of the 8 will play the DRM'd songs because that's all the licenses I can get. This is a pain and so, whenever Fairplay gets cracked, I go to the trouble of stripping the DRM off all of the music. I've done this twice now, but I keep buying music just the same so I end up acquiring more DRM'd content anyhow. But I will crack it every chance I get. I don't give it away, I have well over 10,000 songs and I've paid for every last one that I didn't either write or get from an artist friend (of their own material).

Anyhow, DRM is not the answer. I tolerate it because I can get around it. But I wouldn't muck with such content at all if I couldn't.

You know, as a kid, I used to record songs off the radio onto a portable tape player - using the little microphone on the mono tape recorder. IOW, I just put the thing in front of the stereo speakers and pushed "record". When I got means, I switched to buying.

There's no meaningful radio anymore. People are using torrent sites like Oink to find things they like instead. This is the thing with the internet. People will route around perceived outages. Want a song that's out of print? Someone will find a way to make that song available. Having trouble finding music you like? Directories like Oink and Newsbin arise to replace radio (which, after juke boxes, was the original music sharing platform and served as the promotional arm of the music business).

There is a vacuum for sure. The people who figure out how to fill it will most likely get rich and have our undying gratitude.
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by James Steele »

Let me try and clear up my position on this. I have had a lot going on lately and just haven't had time to post here. I don't have time now, but the misunderstandings seem to have forced my hand.

I don't condone music theft obviously. And if anybody made a post that blatantly condoned or promoted music theft, I would indeed consider deleting their membership immediately. Especially if they were posting to links with sites that were illegally distributing copyrighted material.

That said, if there is rational discussion as far as whether or not different copy-protection is effective and the like, then I'm not going to delete someone from the board simply for expressing an opinion, so long as they are not directly condoning or supporting illegal activities. Make sense?
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

Thanks very much for that, James. I'd never suspect you to come down on the side of a pirate or dishonest person. I totally think the issues can and should be discussed. It is those DEFENDING pirating that gets some of our knickers in a knot. For those who are complacent about piracy and accept it as an insurmountable problem - well, they are entitled to their head in the sand position while others of us continue to fight these crimes, protect our interests, and support those who look for ways to end the abuse.

And just in case there is any ambiguity about it:

Image

It is perfectly fine for anyone, without FBI approval, to use the following generic language on material protected under U.S. copyright law:
"Warning: The unauthorized reproduction or distribution of this copyrighted work is illegal. Criminal copyright infringement, including infringement without monetary gain, is investigated by the FBI and is punishable by up to 5 years in federal prison and a fine of $250,000."
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by Shooshie »

MIDI Life Crisis wrote: Image

In the city, there are millions of pirates. Each day they violate the law. Each day we get called to investigate. Each day there are millions of new stories. This is one of them...

My name is Friday.

My partner is Gannon.

It was a day with a clear sky, something rare for the smog-infested city. Gannon and I got called to check out an internet forum. MOTUNation. Some punks were flaunting their ability to download stolen music.

Our job? Find them.

At 3:30 p.m., we were waiting for the school bus to drop off Timmy and his friends at his house. Timmy was a latchkey kid. The bus arrived at 3:32, two minutes late. Gannon and I hung back, but moved in as the kids opened the door. We gave them time to get their iPods hooked up. When we busted down the door, they all looked like pathetic losers, hitched to heroin IV's. Turns out those were just the headphone cables. Those used to be curly like phone cables back in the day. How was I to know?

Gannon checked the computer screen. The kid had 30 downloads going on LimeWire. One kid yanked his iPod cord out of the USB slot and bolted for the door. We shot him. Filled him full of hot lead. Take that, you lousy pirate. The other kids all froze. We could smell deep doo-doo. Someone needed to change his undies. Bad.

We took them outside and lined them up against the wall. Then we shot 'em. Filled 'em full of hot lead.

Hey, you were expecting Dragnet? Man, they died a long time ago. This is ShootPirates! We fill 'em full o' hot lead. Yeah, baby.

It was 4:00. Just in time to meet the next bus 3 blocks over. We hung back until the kids went into the house. We gave them time to hook up their iPods. When we busted down the door, they were all acting like they were doing homework. There was no computer to be seen. No iPods.

"Where's the loot, you lousy pirates?" I asked. Gannon said "yeah, scum, where are all the songs?"

The kids started making funny shapes with their hands, as if they were trying to tell me something in some sort of funny sign language. I don't do sign. So, we shot 'em. Filled 'em full o' hot lead. "Take that you lousy pirates!" I said.

It was 4:15, and we got another call...

To be continued on

ShootPirates!
-- cue theme to ShootPirates, which sounds a lot like the theme from Dragnet. In fact, it sounds... pirated! Cue cameras back to Friday and Gannon, just in time to see them shooting each other, filling themselves with hot lead, for pirating the Dragnet theme. Oh well... Tomorrow is another pirate pilot. Say'dja hear the one about the irate pie-rate at the finer diner where the shy-date gyrates on the pirate pilot? No? Oh, well maybe later. --


[no actual children were harmed in the making of this imaginary TV show. No actual hot lead was used. The characters playing FBI agents were actors, not real agents. The contents of this show do not necessarily represent the views of this forum, the writer, TV in general, or anything else. It's just entertainment. Filled with hot lead, baby.]
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by corrupted.dll »

I read a couple pages of this post and skipped a couple because it seemed very repetitive to me. The arguments come from us in the business. We make a living at it and we hate to see our work get stolen.
Who in their right mind would want to work for free?

Anyway, there something I've being thinking about for a while now.

First of all the ISPs (Internet Service Providers) in Europe are beginning to monitor bandwidth traffic to identify piracy. Well done!!!

But...
What if we were to make them responsible and therefor accountable for piracy since they provide the means for piracy?
What if we demanded they paid royalties to ASCAP/BMI/etc to be distributed between artists, or find a way to make them accountable for providing the medium of which piracy is based on?

Maybe they should create and manage a huge site where all media can be uploaded and "monitored" in order to pay royalties.
Make things accessible to all so we can monitor all.
Or charge bandwidth per user.
We all hate the "big brother" concept, but for a good cause.

I don't know what the answer is. I'm fresh out of ideas...

I know that I feel good supporting the products and artists that create the things that make my life easier or nicer.
I've purchased all my software copies and all upgrades, plugins etc...

Same goes with music.
But, I also have a beef with iTunes charging way too much for a song download where they keep the better chunk of.
They do not provide the CD nor the printed artwork, nor they support the store personnel to sale the products, but they charge just about the same price. Okay a little cheaper but not much.
Does the artists see that much more? NO!!!!

Anyone who produced a CD knows how many people it takes for the final product to arrive to the stores. From the production of artwork to printing to choosing the CD case, to distribution, to store placement, ads, promotions, posters, music videos, how about the legal infrastructure and business aspect?
So when iTunes distributes the same copy or copies (given they use different servers) of the song over and over and over to millions of people and keep 50% of the profits, where is this fair to us (the artists, producers, record companies, etc) and why is it fair to the consumer?

We need another answer. We need to rethink the model and price it accordingly. We need to make downloadable music more affordable. Price it accordingly.

As for software piracy.
Again, it seems to me (because I don't have the necessary data nor any supporting material) that most of the music software piracy happens with people who are not in the business.
E.g. If a novice musician decides to make some music and has a laptop, what are the chances that will purchase a DAW? Not many. Again to my opinion.
Same goes for someone who want to do a little photoshop work. They can't afford to buy CS4 for just a little photo editing. They result in piracy.

Maybe we need a short term licensing for novice software users.
Buy a license for a day/week or whatever, download it to an iLok and work at a fraction of the cost of the full software package.

I recently downloaded a demo of the Platinum Waves package to test it. They (Waves) provided me with a 30 day license to test their product and it looks like to me that I'll spring the $10.6K for it. Otherwise I wouldn't even consider purchasing a product with this price tag without testing it first especially for me because I'm a hardware kind of guy, and love my outboard.
And with the software licensing laws where after you break the seal of the CD sleeve you "purchased it" it seems that sampling a product before you buy is a must.
Granted several companies have demo versions of their products.

BTW - No need to fly off the handle on this site. I think we're all on the same (forum) page:) :D :D :D :D
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by FMiguelez »

corrupted.dll wrote: But, I also have a beef with iTunes charging way too much for a song download where they keep the better chunk of.
corrupted.dll wrote:I recently downloaded a demo of the Platinum Waves package to test it. They (Waves) provided me with a 30 day license to test their product and it looks like to me that I'll spring the $10.6K for it.
Something about those 2 statements seems... corrupted?
You have a beef paying $0.99 for a tune, yet you don't mind spending $10,600 dollars for some plug-ins?
At least iTunes doesn't charge for a WUP every single year.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but I've heard that argument many times before... I can't believe some people think paiying ninety nine cents for a song in iTunes is "too much"!!!
I think it is STUPID CHEAP, and stupid easy to do!
You are not only paying for the song. You are paying for the convenience of just clicking and downloading... you don't have to go downtown to the mall to get a CD anymore... ANYTHING you want is right there, anytime, at your fingertips.
I mean, I can not imagine it could be any easier... ever.

$10 bucks for an album... they used to be around $15 and $25 bucks here not too long ago :? :?
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by jlaudon »

Another scourge of piracy and the internet.. today a fellow songwriter called me up to chat and commented on how he liked a song I recently did for a UMG singer here in HK. He also mentioned he did a couple songs on the same CD. Later in the day, he emailed links to Youtube versions of the 3 songs. Some jerk put all the songs up there the same the CD was released. I want to go and shove a few CDs down the pirate's throat...

Youtube should be able to 'police' this, as it is widespread, and almost every CD that's released is uploaded there - people aren't downloading pirated songs as much, but are listening to them this way instead. Grrrr :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by Phil O »

FMiguelez wrote:I think it is STUPID CHEAP, and stupid easy to do!
Forgive my ignorance, but I've never used iTunes. Does Apple have high quality versions of the music or is it still all mp3's? They were talking about having a two tier system way back when it started, but I've never been to the site to check it out.

But, I have to agree that a buck a song (even if it's only mp3) is very reasonable (translate "supid cheap"). Even the cost of an album on CD today is less than the equivalent on the vinyl of years-gone-by if you allow for inflation.

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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by KEVORKIAN »

corrupted.dll wrote: Same goes with music.
But, I also have a beef with iTunes charging way too much for a song download where they keep the better chunk of.
They do not provide the CD nor the printed artwork, nor they support the store personnel to sale the products, but they charge just about the same price. Okay a little cheaper but not much.
Does the artists see that much more? NO!!!!
According to most reports I have read, iTunes splits the profits 70/30 with the record companies with the record companies keeping 70%.

Seems like the price is fair however I would bet that by the time that 70% trickles down to the artist it's more like 10%. Seems like your beef should be with the Record companies primarily...
corrupted.dll wrote: As for software piracy.
Again, it seems to me (because I don't have the necessary data nor any supporting material) that most of the music software piracy happens with people who are not in the business.
E.g. If a novice musician decides to make some music and has a laptop, what are the chances that will purchase a DAW? Not many. Again to my opinion.
Same goes for someone who want to do a little photoshop work. They can't afford to buy CS4 for just a little photo editing. They result in piracy.
Software demos have been around for ages. People who pirate things are often hoarding and not looking to get any work done. They just want to own things for free. However I think you would be amazed at how many in the industry are pirating software... It's not just the kiddies.
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by FMiguelez »

Phil O wrote:
FMiguelez wrote:I think it is STUPID CHEAP, and stupid easy to do!
Forgive my ignorance, but I've never used iTunes. Does Apple have high quality versions of the music or is it still all mp3's? They were talking about having a two tier system way back when it started, but I've never been to the site to check it out.

But, I have to agree that a buck a song (even if it's only mp3) is very reasonable (translate "supid cheap"). Even the cost of an album on CD today is less than the equivalent on the vinyl of years-gone-by if you allow for inflation.

Phil
Hey, Phil.
You can get AAC files at 250 (not sure about what the units are). Those are the "high resolution" ones. You can also get them with lower resolution too (I know you wouldn't).

For the average user (non-musicians) those are PERFECTLY fine. Those kids are getting more and more deaf by the minute anyway, so it's not like they would take their ear-buds out and say: "hey, this doesn't sound like a CD dude".
And with these modern lossy compressing techniques, even WE would have to listen very closely (A-B) to notice deal-breaker differences.
Last edited by FMiguelez on Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by KEVORKIAN »

Shooshie wrote:
MIDI Life Crisis wrote: Image

In the city, there are millions of pirates. Each day they violate the law. Each day we get called to investigate. Each day there are millions of new stories. This is one of them...

My name is Friday.

My partner is Gannon.

It was a day with a clear sky, something rare for the smog-infested city. Gannon and I got called to check out an internet forum. MOTUNation. Some punks were flaunting their ability to download stolen music.

Our job? Find them.....
:lol: :lol: :lol: This is one of the funniest things I have read on the interwebz. I think you sir. I'm going to make a copy (pirate?) this and show it to all my friends! j/k :lol:
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by James Steele »

jlaudon wrote:Another scourge of piracy and the internet.. today a fellow songwriter called me up to chat and commented on how he liked a song I recently did for a UMG singer here in HK. He also mentioned he did a couple songs on the same CD. Later in the day, he emailed links to Youtube versions of the 3 songs. Some jerk put all the songs up there the same the CD was released. I want to go and shove a few CDs down the pirate's throat...

Youtube should be able to 'police' this, as it is widespread, and almost every CD that's released is uploaded there - people aren't downloading pirated songs as much, but are listening to them this way instead. Grrrr :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
I know there is a mechanism to report copyright violation to YouTube and they will pull it down. You see that a lot with skits from Saturday Night Live that are pulled at request of NBC. It would be nice if YouTube could do this on their own rather than wait for the copyright owner to report it, but I can't imagine that's practical. Have you reported the videos to YouTube in order to have them removed?
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by KEVORKIAN »

James Steele wrote:It would be nice if YouTube could do this on their own rather than wait for the copyright owner to report it, but I can't imagine that's practical. Have you reported the videos to YouTube in order to have them removed?
When people upload songs to YouTube they are also changing the file format to a flash or h.264 movie.

So I can't see how YouTube can know that the movie file being uploaded contains copyrighted audio as it has been transcoded.

Same goes for video, like the NBC SNL episodes for instance, they are being recorded to a DVR or computer directly and then Transcoded.

Hypothetically they could develop a system of digital flags on files, however there are so many companies that would have to agree to integrate the flags that this is likely to be impractical. Meanwhile, someone will crack and strip the flag.
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by FMiguelez »

.

Reporting prohibited content in YouTube seems to work fine... then it's up to honest users to do so, and I understand it's as easy as clicking on the "Report" button, kind of like with Craig's list.
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Re: Forum wide proposal - Zero tolerance for music theft

Post by MIDI Life Crisis »

FMiguelez wrote:.

Reporting prohibited content in YouTube seems to work fine... then it's up to honest users to do so, and I understand it's as easy as clicking on the "Report" button, kind of like with Craig's list.
It is. I've done it a few dozen times.
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