Opinions please. Time to switch back, or move on.

[sevenone]

This is a little wordy. Sorry about that. Please though, if you can, I need some advice.

With the release of DP7, and prior to the end of the year, now is a good time to consider a move back to DP. I’m asking for some help in deciding my next move. As little background, I started into this game with DP4 in ‘05, after trying PT, and Cubase,. I upgraded to DP5 when the bug release came out.

DP6 was released just before I upgraded from a G5 Dual 2.0 to a 24” iMac 2.8 Extreme, I figured it was a good time to upgrade DP. When I bought the new machine, it was and is much faster then the G5, but everything I read about DP6 was not good. Glitchy, slow, and for me no real features worth upgrading to. But I was having problems with DP5. It would, for no real reason that I could find, begin to hiss after a couple hours of use, that would quickly turn into a grainy noise. I’d have to restart the machine several times in a session. I had asked about it here several times with no good answers. I thought it was my 828MKII crapping out, but it only happened when running DP, so maybe too many plugs or something. I had read about offloading processing to several machines, but could find a good way to do it.

At that same time I was given Logic Studio here at work and was smitten. Awesome VI’s, better channel strip, and the Node. That node feature is the main reason I have stayed. My G5 wasn’t obsolete.

Now is a good time for me to upgrade gear. I’m looking at several options, DP7, Logic 9, or ditching my comfort for ProTools (le, cant afford to switch to PTHD). I really don’t want PT, but in this town (Minneapolis) it seems everybody that makes money runs it. When asked about what I run from potential clients, I’m tired of explaining why I don’t run PT. It was bad before, but with all the “Recording Schools” here now, it’s ridiculous. Hell, my new bandmates would rather spend money on recording in a basement studio that runs PT, than even listen to my samples. It’s an PTHD setup, with decent gear, but it truly sounds awful. “We could do scratch tracks at your place, but the real stuff should be done on ProTools.” I don’t brag much (cause I’m not that good yet), but my 2 hr demos, blow away what I’ve heard from this PT guru. Anywho, below is a pro/con list. Please help.

PT:
Pros:
1. it’s PT, I’ll probably get more $$.
2. The extras do sound good, (strike, eleven, etc).
Cons:
1. It’s PTle. I’m limited.
2. Additional stuff found in DP and Logic are extra here.
3. Major cost outlay, minimal quality difference.
4. Unknown stability.

Logic:
Pros:
1. Logic Node. Love this!
2. My Tascam us2400 works natively. This is good.
3. Included VI’s, media. This is great for getting an idea out.
4. Some of the new features looks great. Flex time, drum replacer, better fades)
5. Nodes!
6. Very stable, and smooth on my gear.
7. Very easy to get up and going.
Cons:
1. Metering isn’t as robust as DP, I don’t trust it as much.
2. Not as robust as DP.
3. No autotune (I don’t use it much, but I do miss it for some vox lately)
4. Seems it might be hoggish.
5. I feel like I have less control over stuff.

DP7:
Pro:
1. Metering is good
2. Plugs are pretty good
3. The new guitar stuff looks cool
4. I know it pretty well
5. Seems more stable than 6
6. Better beat detection
7. Better fades

Cons:
1. No ability to tie processing between machines
2. Unsure about my degrading sound issue with DP.
3. us2400 only works as a HUI device.
4. VI’s aren’t very good. Would have to add MachFive.
5. MIDI setup sucked
6. Unsure if it’s hoggish.

Again, sorry for the length of this post, I hope some made it to the end. Any opinions would be helpful. Thanks

[Kubi]

PT LE is not an option, IMO. No ADC, artificially reduced track count, no sync to video at all, no Audio Unit plugs, etc. Unless you buy the insanely expensive unlock packs (forget what they are called) to get to higher track counts, SMPTE lock etc., it is simply not a contender. And since you say PTHD is out of the question, I think PT is not worth considering for you.

As far as Logic and DP goes, looks like you have a nice list of pros and cons for your workflow. I'm confident you will not have any problems with audio quality in DP. Not sure what happened, but I've never had that issue nor heard of it anywhere else, so it's definitely not an inherent flaw built into DP software.

Here are a few random DP pros over Logic (I posted these a few weeks ago in this thread

- multiple sequences per project
- multiple savable mixes
- more flexible (while still easy-to-use) routing possibilities - no need for an 'environment'
- built in pitch correction and very flexible audio quantize/time correction
- much more flexible and intuitive user interface (i.e. make visible any mix of track, regardless of type, and put them wherever you want; or ability to use BOTH track overview and sequence editor)
- superior audio editing
- very highly developed MIDI editing tools (i.e. shaping tools for intuitive mass editing of controller data)
- very highly developed options for using custom scales, grooves etc.
- wait-for-note mode (just to rub it in, Logic!)
- peerless film scoring tools
- peerless live performance tools (i.e. chunk chaining etc.)
- POLAR looping tool
- very useful, detailed print manual
- extremely helpful user community right here

Two DP cons compared to Logic:

- no object-oriented MIDI editing
- can't use external MIDI controller to drive non-MIDI host automation (at least I haven't been able to figure out how)
- lackluster selection of included VIs (however, the built-in audio plug-ins are definitely quite useful now, with MW EQ, MW Limiter, ProVerb, etc. I'd call those overall at least on par with what's in the box for Logic and PTLE... then again, I use 3rd party plugs no matter in which DAW I work.)

Most importantly, right now on a current machine in Snow Leopard, DP7 is rock solid and loads of fun!!

[sevenone]

Is there anything similar to node processing available for DP? I took a look at wormhole2, but it's not in development anymore, and at the time ('07/'08) didn't seem to be all that great. Or, is DP more streamlined that it was in 5? I'm thinking of still running the iMac, which if I can't offload processing, makes my G5 useless. And I'm not sure I can smoothly run without that. Currently in Logic, when I write, I might have 6 gtrs all running amplitube, and 1 bass running amplitube, and Toontrack Superior 2 running full drums. If I don't run nodes, it crashes. When I do run nodes, no problem.

DP4-5 was mostly flawless mixing up to 48-52 tracks, but no amp plugs, no toontrack, limited plugs. But I was getting that annoying noise. Now I write more, and gtr plugs are easier now than miking, for idea rendering and Superior2 - ah, who needs a drummer.

I really only switched because I got a great deal, nodes, VI's, and dp6 was rating pretty bad

I don't know. Any thoughts on that? Maybe I should write with Logic on the iMac, and do more of the recording/mixing/making money on the G5 with DP7?

Or just scrap the whole idea and put the dough into more mics and pres.

[waxman]

I have both DP and Logic. I invested a lot of time in Logic so I feel I have the knowledge to make an informed decision. DP7 is a better working environment overall. The included VIs in Logic are not on par with other third party VIs to that is a wash. If you want great VIs it will cost you.

If the bottom line for you is a commercial business then think hard. A commercial studio is a service industry profession. There are much higher paying service industry professions. It is my experience after helping someone paint their house all day the last thing you want to do is paint your own... metaphor.

If you are going commercial get a really good business plan and go after a government grant and get pro-tools HD. Or else get the pro-tools lite and use DP as the front end and tell your clients you are running TDM... either way it's a compromise.

The do it just cause everyone else is doing it is losing ground. You said it yourself your stuff sounds better then the pro-tools guy. So stand up and just say it. Pro-tools is old school and you are using the newest and best DAW on the planet. DP7... man I sound like a homer but I believe it.

[Kubi]

DP does not do node processing. There are other ways to integrate multiple machines, but they are more involved (and I don't have any first-hand experience with them.) So if node processing works in your current setup and not having it is a deal-breaker for you, you should probably stick with Logic.

[daveyboy]

I'm a "commercial" studio (for the past 15 years) and have always run DP. Nobody ever asks what I use and the people who do usually only want to come in for one day and also want to pay less. Now I run DP, PT LE, and Logic (and have Reaper). I mostly use Logic and DP and frankly never boot up PT unless it's to convert something. Anyway, the point is, get what ever daws you think will bring in business but use what you're good at using. Why not. Then you'll just get more business all around. I use what I'm comfortable working with and don't really care anymore. I do run high end converters, pres, mics and have a nice room so that helps. But, I'd say that 99% of my clients are here for me and not the gear. Hope that helps.

[James Steele]

It's a good time to switch this to the "theoretical discussions" and OT forum, since the DP forum is really meant for using DP and not comparative DAW ruminations.

[Frodo]

PT:
Cons:
1. It’s PTle. I’m limited.
2. Additional stuff found in DP and Logic are extra here.
3. Major cost outlay, minimal quality difference.
4. Unknown stability.

Logic:
Cons:
1. Metering isn’t as robust as DP, I don’t trust it as much.
2. Not as robust as DP.
3. No autotune (I don’t use it much, but I do miss it for some vox lately)
4. Seems it might be hoggish.
5. I feel like I have less control over stuff.

DP7:
Cons:
1. No ability to tie processing between machines
2. Unsure about my degrading sound issue with DP.
3. us2400 only works as a HUI device.
4. VI’s aren’t very good. Would have to add MachFive.
5. MIDI setup sucked
6. Unsure if it’s hoggish.

Again, sorry for the length of this post, I hope some made it to the end. Any opinions would be helpful. Thanks

Seems to me that you've nearly answered your own question. EVERYTHING has pros and cons, so it's more or less a clean slate. I don't agree with all of your citings (such as MIDI setup in DP), but this is about what feels best for YOU.

Remove your 'pros' and just look at your 'cons'. It becomes a matter of picking what YOU feel are the least of all evils. From this end, it seems that you are leaning towards Logic.

I'm not sure what you mean by Logic not being as "robust" as DP. Also, the idea that Logic is "hoggish" plays against the popular argument that Logic rates highly where resource efficiency goes. This is not my opinion, just to be clear, but I hear this a lot. I'm just trying to connect a few dots here.

I will say this: if you are serious about your music production, the last thing you should consider are the bundled VIs and plugins. My feeling is that there are enough wonderful plugin bundles and VIs out there which place the focus on quality of sound. Along with this, considerations should be made where compatibility is concerned with Audio Units and your OSX version. There are a number of things which are still trying to catch up with Snow Leopard compatibility, but that takes a bit of research to determine what to avoid and what to buy.

Stability is paramount. DP7.x is, by MANY accounts-- more than I've seen in a very long time-- stable. Again-- some are having issues, but these appear to be more isolated and could be the result of many things-- the version of QuickTime in use, a wonky third-party plugin or VI, too many windows open, not enough RAM, inadequate preference settings, an indiscriminate distribution of streaming data on hard drives, or even a workflow that is unfriendly to the system. But the same can be said for any DAW on any system.

Hoggish uncertainties? I think you will find many things about your Intel-based Mac quite favorable no matter what DAW you choose.

So, where does that leave things? Oh, yes: what DAW to get.

Get the one that YOU feel most comfortable using-- or get the one that has the workflow features that you don't mind learning from scratch. You've used them all, so you should already have a pretty good idea which one fits this bill.

Do not worry about bundled plugins. Each has some plusses. Each has minuses, but to walk away from a perfectly good DAW because you don't like the electric piano sound doesn't make sense. Base your decision on recording features, on editing tools, and on a workflow which serves you the best. Yes, stability is very important--- but anyone with any DAW can show you a list of crash reports for one reason or another.

It's almost futile to say that DAW 'X' works for me. No sooner is that said, someone else will boast the benefits of DAW 'Y' and someone else will assert the pros of DAW 'Z', and the cycle of indecision goes on and on. To that extent, it's almost not worth arguing about features. These DAWs can accomplish the same things all around. The issue is whether you like the way in which each accomplishes the same tasks and which method appeals to YOU the most. It doesn't matter if DAW X makes me happy if DAW Y or DAW Z makes YOU happier.

I will say this, in the interest of fairness: Logic has at least two pitch-based utilities, contrary to one of your observations. That is strictly a quantitative observation and NOT a qualitative judgement. You may have to do some footwork to get your hands on all of the pros and cons to parse the facts from the misconceptions.

Short of buying all the DAWs and trying them out on your new machine, I would strongly suggest that you find a studio, a friend, or a music merchant with all of these DAWs loaded and get your hands on them as long as they are installed on a Mac with a similar CPU as yours (or better).

Keep in mind that you have an iMac. That means that a lot of daisy-chaining firewire devices may be necessary. This is not ideal, per se. The new iMacs have much-improved firewire busses, granted (and that's a big plus), but CPU speed is only one part of the many considerations at issue. Even the new firewire busses can suffer from data clog--- and, it's important to note that no matter how many firewire PORTS there are on any Mac old or new, there's only ONE firewire BUSS into which ALL connected devices fold and compete for resources. The will be limits at one point or another, and it's important to be aware of these limits. Again-- hardware limitations (and third-party incompatibilities) are often the reasons why DAWs get wrongly accused for things going south. People are quick to start threads saying that this DAW crashed over here or that DAW crashed over there, but few are INITIALLY aware of the how the manner in which their systems are setup or how they prefer to work are also considerations which may be due for adjustments.

No matter what DAW you choose, it's important to get your hands dirty. Some people don't like getting their hands dirty, but since all apps crash it's important to know what the idiosyncrasies are with each and to simply accept what needs to be done as routine to keep your DAW working at optimum efficiency.

I've only attempted to assert some common sense into what is certainly a difficult decision. DP works differently from Logic. Logic is for one kind of thinker/creator. DP is clearly for a different type. In Brazil, there is a saying: "Que time e teu?" That has many meanings, LOL, but literally, it asks "What team is yours?" or "what team are you on?".

Side note: I love Rio-- and that quote is pronounced "kay CHEE-may eh TAY-oo?" São Paolo residents would beg to differ on the pronunciation. Wonderful people, Brazilians. I cannot begin to explain.

Anyway, 7-1, I encourage you to find greater strength in your own instincts because I firmly believe that the answer always resides in the question!!

[jlaudon]

I haven't got time to answer much, but I use both DP7 and Logic 8. I much prefer DP's working environment, and to your question about nodes, this is what I do with DP. I have a second Mac that runs my LA scoring Strings. I downloaded ipMIDI (free, and takes care of the MIDI) - this runs over ethernet. Then, I had an extra MBox 2, which I use to run the audio from the 2nd Mac into my 828mk3 (no latency). I host plugins in Bidule on the 2nd Mac.

A huge upside to DP is the direct monitoring mode, since you have a MOTU interface. Even using my Apogee Ensemble into Logic still had latency which I could live with, but not after getting used to DP and the 828mk3 with direct monitoring. This is huge if you will do a lot of tracking. Then the pitch correction is big, if you are doing a lot of vocals.

[Shooshie]

DP7:
Pro:
1. Metering is good
2. Plugs are pretty good
3. The new guitar stuff looks cool
4. I know it pretty well
5. Seems more stable than 6
6. Better beat detection
7. Better fades

Cons:
1. No ability to tie processing between machines
2. Unsure about my degrading sound issue with DP.
3. us2400 only works as a HUI device.
4. VI’s aren’t very good. Would have to add MachFive.
5. MIDI setup sucked
6. Unsure if it’s hoggish.

So much has changed since you apparently last used DP. First of all, the Pros. I can't even begin to list them all. It's just incredibly good at a high level of user competency. In other words, if you are working with it all the time, and you need to work fast and accurately, DP will give you options that make your work very fast. But it has great features that rarely ever get discussed. To name only a few: Split Notes, Search, Custom Consoles, Clippings, MIDI Editing (continuous data drawing/editing features are unsurpassed), many new audio editing features that make some tasks very easy that used to be very hard... and on it goes.

But your list of cons? I think they're all wrong.

1: there are several methods of slaving other machines to DP
2: degrading sound? Sound quality in DP is sample accurate. What's degrading? It's amazing.
3: I have no idea about HUI devices. I believe there are several that work.
4: VI's in DP are excellent for what they are. The major limitation is user knowledge and ingenuity. But when we talk about bundled VIs in any DAW, we're talking about a low-level market. Some people may find Logic's DAWs to be usable, but in general I need high-end VI's, and I'd rather get them from 3rd parties. Mach Five is an amazing sampler; no doubt about that. I own it and I'm glad I do. But it's not nearly as usable these days as specialty VI's such as Vienna Symphonic Library, Wallander Instruments, and even some of the Garritan libraries. Again, the major limitation in ANY library or VI is the user, but DAW-bundled VI's are never of the first-rate. That's why I find MOTU's bundled VI's to be excellent for what they are: bundled VI's. There is much you can do with them. But when it comes to pianos and violins, I don't want the stuff provided with Logic, Garageband, or any other DAW. I'll pick my own, thank you.
5. MIDI setup sucked? What on EARTH are you talking about? DP has the best MIDI setup there is.
6. Hoggish? The differences between DAWs has been shrinking in this regard. DP has many ways of reducing latency and CPU usage. Depending on your circumstances, you may be able to get a lot less latency in it than in most other DAWs. I've heard reports that Logic 9 is much more "hoggish" than before. Things change.

I don't know what version of DP you last used, or what Mac you used it on, but your setup in general must have been less-than-desirable to leave you with such a bad taste about DP. Moreover, your list of cons really kind of floors me. How did you ever get those opinions about DP? That's not the DP I know!

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

everything I read about DP6 was not good. Glitchy, slow, and for me no real features worth upgrading to.

I think THAT is one of the problems: what you read. When DP6 came out, there were some genuine issues. They were quickly squashed in 6.01 and 6.02. But people still griped about DP6, largely because of the new GUI. It does look different. You do have to learn where everything is. It's been changed. At first I too was resistant to the changed GUI, but now I wouldn't go back for anything. As for those other problems, most of them vanished in DP6.02, which was very stable and was a fine bit of work. Things got even better when Apple released Snow Leopard, suggesting that not all the problems were strictly MOTU's. Then DP7 came out, and was in many people's opinions (myself included) the best version-0 release in the history of DP. Things have gotten even better since then.

I was disappointed with the trashing that DP6 got in this forum. It deserved some of it at first, but by the time MOTU released 6.02, it should have stopped. It seemed as though many people had just become habitually critical at that point. I had to stay away from here for about 6 months, as I simply didn't wish to exert the energy it took to counter all the negative opinions. I came back with Snow Leopard, and with DP7, and I've never been happier to be using DP.

Shooshie

[martian]

and have a nice room so that helps. But, I'd say that 99% of my clients are here for me and not the gear. Hope that helps.

+1

[emulatorloo]

I really don’t want PT, but in this town (Minneapolis) it seems everybody that makes money runs it. When asked about what I run from potential clients, I’m tired of explaining why I don’t run PT. It was bad before, but with all the “Recording Schools” here now, it’s ridiculous. Hell, my new bandmates would rather spend money on recording in a basement studio that runs PT, than even listen to my samples.

<SNIP>

PT:
Pros:
1. it’s PT, I’ll probably get more $$.

There is a lot to be said for this money angle, if you are in business to make money.

From what I gather ProTools and Logic are what most people think about when they think DAWs. Those are the "brand names" they think of as professional.

I doubt the "LE" aspect will hinder you either if you are basicallly recording bands, etc.

I got a new "open box demo" MBOX 2 Mini very cheap this summer with ProTools LE 8, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised at how much I enjoyed working with the software. (the last time I had seen PT was at PT LE 6). The elastic audio feature actually is quite nice, for example. The included VI's are pretty good, and of course all the VI's and plugs I already own come with RTAS versions on the same disk.

As to cost, I have seen aggressive pricing on PTLE at audiomidi.com and novamusik.com

If you are a sweetwater customer as so many are here, I am sure they would work with you on pricing.

Additionally there is a music store on ebay selling open box 003r units with PT 8 for 799.00 delivered I contacted them about them - full warranty, unregistered, authorized dealer, etc etc.

Or you could try to go the used route with an 002r. But I have been tracking this for a while, used prices are pretty high, and once you add a PT LE 8 upgrade from Digi it may not be cost effective.

I have had way to many bad experiences with M-Audio interfaces to suggest that you go the Pro-Tools M-powered route.

-------

Personally I could never give up DP. And I haven't! I enjoy working in both.

But if your potential clients want "Pro Tools" and "only "Pro Tools" will do" you have to consider that seriously in your decision.

Just my 2 cents worth, probably worth less!

-------------------------

[James Steele]

I doubt the "LE" aspect will hinder you either if you are basicallly recording bands, etc.

The omission of Automatic Delay Compensation is a big one. And someone said it doesn't use Audio Units either? You have to have RTAS, I guess? That seems like another biggie.

I was talking to some video production people yesterday and we got onto the subject of Avid/Digidesign's penchant for using "crippleware" as a tool to extract more $$$ from their user base. It's one of the reasons I think people were so happy to embrace Final Cut Pro and leave Avid behind.

[emulatorloo]

I was talking to some video production people yesterday and we got onto the subject of Avid/Digidesign's penchant for using "crippleware" as a tool to extract more $$$ from their user base. It's one of the reasons I think people were so happy to embrace Final Cut Pro and leave Avid behind.

OH MAN no kidding. When I worked in that university film production department it was the same thing with both AVID and the Media 100 systems. There was always a "TAX" to be paid if you wanted features (that should have been included from the get go). I am not there anymore, but they are all Final Cut now, and they are so happy!

The omission of Automatic Delay Compensation is a big one. And someone said it doesn't use Audio Units either? You have to have RTAS, I guess? That seems like another biggie.

Yeah, ADC. Yeah. A guy has figured a workaround for it, it seems similar to what we had to do with powercore(? or was it DP? my brain is shot) at one point. It is definitely HIDEOUS - a step backward frm where we are with DP.

http://www.protoolstraining.com/ProMedi ... ls-le.html

Yes it wants RTAS and can't use AU. That is not a big deal at all though:

Most if not all vendors ship RTAS in the box with AU.

So in PTLE 8, I have these available - MOTU MX4, the Native Instruments stuff, the Eastwest Play Stuff, Toontracks, IK multimedia, UVI player, Antares, etc etc. Oh my goodness even old that Wizooverb W2 convolution reverb (except that it makes my G5 want to cry).

The only plugs that I own that I cant use? <POWERCORE>

Those are natively VST's, they suggest buying FXpansions VST to RTAS wrapper. (remember that TC is wrapping them to AU's) But to tell you the truth I am getting pretty sick of that card, it is the second one they had so it is ancient, so maybe the time has come for it to go. EBAY here I come. It certainly won't survey the next computer upgrade, so I outta get moving.