So what's wrong with using a USB external drive...

[midiw]

I have always purchased/used a FireWired external drive.

Looking around at some the latest USB external drives what's wrong with using a USB external drive? They certainly cost less and appear to have the specs to keep up during a "audio" recording session.

So, what's the scoop on NOT using them ?

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Speed in sustained transfers (as in music and video...)

http://www.usb-ware.com/firewire-vs-usb.htm

[Frodo]

That's a good web page, MLC. Very informative.

There's nothing "wrong" with using a USB drive if what you're doing is archiving, backing up, saving, loading, etc. USB drives are just not the best options for smooth real-time streaming.

[midiw]

That's a good web page, MLC. Very informative.

There's nothing "wrong" with using a USB drive if what you're doing is archiving, backing up, saving, loading, etc. USB drives are just not the best options for smooth real-time streaming.

First of all let me say what an honor it is to have you respond/take interest in my problem question.

When I spoke to several PC service techs they somewhat scoffed at the idea that a PC would choke during an audio/video recording to usb storage devices unless the computer was underpowered and/or there were attempts to have the computer do other processes at the same time such as toasting, webbing, or even printing.

I just may buy a USB hard drive on a 30 day trial basis and there are plenty of those offers in the market today from several computer barns in my area.

[kgdrum]

checked out the link MLC provided,some good info but fwiw ,I have the Sonnet card they are pushing at the top of the list(do not use it and pulled it out of the Mac).
Scott from ADK( a very reputable PC maker)on Gearslutz warns that combined FW and USB cards can create problems on a computer with the USB and FW sharing the same pci throughput as I understand it.
I was having all sorts of fan issues ,I am not sure if this was the actual cause but the idea of a card sharing both fw and usb on the same pci bus seems like it is potentially is asking too much for these somewhat limited technologies on 1 card.imo
KG

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I use a USB and FW card on my G5 w/o incident. Never use the USB drives for anything but archiving.

[midiw]

I use a USB and FW card on my G5 w/o incident. Never use the USB drives for anything but archiving.

This is not a challenge to your advice or comments.

It seems odd to me that with the ultra high processing powers of today's computers why not use a USB external drive during a recording session ?

What actually happens when you try to use your USB external hard drive device for a recording session but without using the computer for other tasks during that recording process ?

I would be interested to hear the actual results.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I use a USB and FW card on my G5 w/o incident. Never use the USB drives for anything but archiving.

This is not a challenge to your advice or comments.

It seems odd to me that with the ultra high processing powers of today's computers why not use a USB external drive during a recording session ?

Then go for it. It would seem that there is a reason USB drives are so much cheaper (less expensive). Enough of the members responding agree (as do all the people I know who are in the trenches) that FW is better for streaming data. It also depends on how much data you are streaming. A stereo track might be just fine. Add a few more tracks and you will see a marked difference.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

What actually happens when you try to use your USB external hard drive device for a recording session but without using the computer for other tasks during that recording process ?

I would be interested to hear the actual results.

I don't have the time to play that kind of game. I have external USB drives and see that they are slower in just transferring data, so why would I even bother to experiment with a slow drive. Ain't gonna happen.

[newrigel]

When I spoke to several PC service techs they somewhat scoffed at the idea that a PC would choke during an audio/video recording to usb storage devices unless the computer was underpowered and/or there were attempts to have the computer do other processes at the same time such as toasting, webbing, or even printing.

The magic word... PC service techs....

I use a USB and FW card on my G5 w/o incident. Never use the USB drives for anything but archiving.

This is not a challenge to your advice or comments.

It seems odd to me that with the ultra high processing powers of today's computers why not use a USB external drive during a recording session ?

What actually happens when you try to use your USB external hard drive device for a recording session but without using the computer for other tasks during that recording process ?

I would be interested to hear the actual results.

Well...
Try it and see what happens! Maybe in your situation, it could work!

In mine... it definetly would not!
You would get a better result recording to your internal drive than a USB drive.
The USB bus is a peripheral buss and not a true duplexing data buss like a SAS or SATA (or FW for that matter) in which the buss speeds are faster and are designed from the ground up for the specific task of bi-directional communication... USB drives are NOT performance drives... they are designed for archiving and backups... period.
Sure, 480 Mbps but that's NOTHING compared to the SAS or SATA (300 MBps) buss or drive!
2 completely different animals my man!

Please note: you will run into bottlenecks doing this so might as well do it right when your music is on the line! But if it isn't mission critical, go for it... but don't get upset when you get a kernel panic and that awesome once in a lifetime take... well, just didn't get recorded and/or is manifested with annoying pops and clicks !

[Frodo]

It seems odd to me that with the ultra high processing powers of today's computers why not use a USB external drive during a recording session ?

What actually happens when you try to use your USB external hard drive device for a recording session but without using the computer for other tasks during that recording process ?

I would be interested to hear the actual results.

Firewire, for example, delivers data in continuous streams. USB delivers data in packages. This means that it reads only "so much" data (ie: audio) and then sends it through the pipe. While it delivers the data it collects another package of data and then sends that through the pipe. The risk here is higher where your project could stutter while audio and video data straggle to get to their destinations.

On larger projects, there were certain limitations of the older firewire busses which were only 33Mhz. As more developers tapped into firewire connectivity with audio interfaces and external hard drives, users were unaware of how easily the single firewire buss (with multiple ports folding into it) could get overwhelmed. Even the firewire 800 ports shared the same buss as the firewire 400 ports-- effectively making one potentially problematic bottleneck.

Apple upped the firewire buss last year to PCIe speeds: 2.5Ghz, which certainly helps greatly. For users with machines made prior to 2008 (I forget the exact date), the PCIx FW card hosts were employed to take advantage of the card slots' speeds of 100Mhz or faster. It's not as fast as 2.5Ghz, but it's a definite step up from 33Mhz. On those machines with PCIe slots, users already had the option of a(n) FW host card slot's 2.5Ghz speed advantage.

So, there are a lot of factors which can contribute to one's DAW projects limping along and feeling sluggish. It goes way beyond the issue of CPU speed. You can have the fastest CPU in the world, but USB2.0 protocol just has its limits which the CPU cannot help.

I really do encourage you to test the veracity of various devices, their diversity of connectivity options, and their limits. Sometimes, seeing really is believing.

[midiw]

Thank you all for the explanations and personal findings/experience. Sorry if aroused some anger in my questioning. I certainly value your experiences since you all have equipment and experience far beyond what I have or learned over the years.

As i asked "so what's wrong with using a USB external drive..." now I know. Sometimes or rather very often I think I know but really I don't.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Sometimes or rather very often I think I know but really I don't.

+1 but together we seem to be getting important info and it is by questions like yours that we get that info. I don't think anyone was actually angered, but if I came off that way, I apologize. I tend not to edit nor mince words and that can be annoying to many. I appreciate your question and learned a lot in participating in the response. I knew that FW was better than USB but didn't know exactly why. Now I do and, as usual, Frodo and Shooshie are to blame for reducing my ignorance level. Not to worry, there's still a lot of ignorance left in me

[midiw]

MIDI Life Crisis

All is well here bro.

Most of time my typing gets in the way of this old brain: both seem to go in opposite directions meaning that one is too slow and t'other is too fast.

[Frodo]

I don't think anyone was angered, either. Sometimes the need to find out first hand is more important than taking the advice of strangers printed on the internetS.

But, I learned the hard way--

1. Oh, this device is less expensive and the same size. What's the difference? I'll buy the cheap one.

2. Oh, my VIs are sputtering all over the place. It must be DP. It must be OSX. It must be my computer. I'll buy a new computer.

You can imagine how this story plays out---- and so the troubleshooting chase continued until....

...someone explained about data paths, hard drive connectivity protocols, and what works better for audio and video.

Of the reasonably affordable solutions in descending order of speed:

1. eSATA and eSATA II (eSATA II is faster than eSATA)

2: firewire

3. usb