Honest Opinion about DP Virtual Synths

[James Steele]

Okay... a few points:

1) The statement to the effect: "Apple is hardly a monopoloy." What do you mean? On the whole? Not a monopoly in computer operating systems, but are they yet a monopoly in online music distribution? Portable music players? Just because they are not a monopoly across their entire product line, doesn't mean they aren't approaching a monopoly in the Mac DAW market. Essentially they control the platform and the OS and the Audio Unit standard. They control core audio. And they make Logic and recently dumped Logic Pro Studio and included VIs on the market at the sort of pricing that they couldn't had they not been able to subsidize that pricing due to the success of other business units. So when it comes to the Mac DAW world, they are within striking distance of being a monopoly. If not for the Apple Records lawsuit they might have been making audio interfaces under their own brand as well?

2) As for the virtual synths in DP, I'll say again, if you don't like them, don't use them. That's what most of us do. If you're bummed that a VI doesn't have effects "built in" why not throw a chorus plug on the track. I know... too much effort. It's got to be built in.

And yep... whether or not Apple's pricing is fair you can pretty much count on the consumer to not care one way or the other. But perhaps the fact that there are still many users of Digital Performer and two new Mac DAWs were recently introduced despite Apple's aggressive pricing and bundling of VIs says something about Logic and why Apple needed to throw so much candy at users to entice them to come on board.

Finally, I agree wish Shooshie in that some of us aren't going to remain silent any more on some of the sweeping generalizations made about DP. As the founder of this board I can't tell you how depressed it makes me that this board has become largely a place to pick apart DP for every slight shortcoming. It makes sense though as those are the easy posts to make. It's harder to make a post about a technique one uses or a tip and trick... much easier to pick at the DP a piece at a time. It's not dead YET.

[daniel.sneed]

Model 12 fits exactly my needs for an acoustic oriented drum-VI.
Very easy and powerful.

Sometimes, I use Reason Redrum for some electronic preset convenience, though.

I built some DP Transpose presets to get the right notes from my Control Pad for each drum VI. They lay in clipping window, ready to go : Fast and easy.

[waterstrum]

DP is a seriously deep platform that can realize any composition imaginable.

I consider the included VIs to be an added bonus.

Sorry, this is hypocrisy.

Some of the same people who are calling VIs and plugins an "added bonus" are the ones gushing about how DP7 is a great and worthy update (yet most of its most attractive "updates" are new plugs). Take your pick. Are plugs part of the program or not? Don't just pick an answer depending upon what you think makes Digital Performer (and its updates) look the best.

Sorry, I love Digital Performer, but I hate hypocrisy more.

Yikes, tell me what'd I say?

How is that hypocritical?
hypocrisy |hiˈpäkrisē|
noun ( pl. -sies)
the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform; pretense.

I use DP daily for my income.
For my paying sessions, I use 5.13.
I just got DP7 and so far the only gushing I have done is to report that it works.
I opened several big sessions and they played back fine.
I recorded audio and did some MIDI stuff.
It all worked.
I didn't even check out the new plugs and VIs.
I'm sure I will use DP7 as my main thing eventually .

Back to the OT, my honest opinion is that the DP virtual synths are very cool and a nice added bonus. This is based on checking them out in DP5.13.

For me, DP is an excellent platform for creating music.

[Shooshie]

Don't worry, Waterstrum. You didn't say anything hypocritical; you just said what was on your mind. I think this thread just has some folks out of sorts, because they're all wrong and they know I'm right, but they don't want to admit it. So, they attacked you instead.

Shooshie

[Armageddon]

Don't worry, Waterstrum. You didn't say anything hypocritical; you just said what was on your mind. I think this thread just has some folks out of sorts, because they're all wrong and they know I'm right, but they don't want to admit it. So, they attacked you instead.

How is my opinion "wrong", exactly? See, this is the problem I'm having. An opinion was asked for and I gave it. You gave your opinion. Then, you proceeded to attack my opinion. You accused me of lying. How am I lying about my own opinion?!? You have yet to explain how this is even possible.

No one has attacked your stance on this subject at all; in fact, I actually acknowledged your opinion in my first post, since I knew you liked and got a lot of use out of the VIs from a previous discussion on the subject. I presented both sides of the argument. I never said that the VIs were bad or unusable. I even pointed out the few merits I saw in them. I simply stated that I personally didn't like them, gave my reasons why I didn't like them and that, by comparison, GarageBand's was better, as far as I was concerned. Like James said, I don't use the bundled VIs, and not using the VIs doesn't hinder my DP experience in the slightest. I use other plug-ins and VIs with DP and they all work out great. You then proceeded to go on some sort of over-zealous tirade about why my own opinion is somehow "wrong". I didn't play around with them enough? Exactly how long is "enough"? I can go to a music store, mess around with a hardware keyboard for about ten minutes, know if it will suit my needs or not and purchase it based on that criteria. Same goes for software. I messed around with each bundled VI in DP, examined their presets, even attempted placing them in MIDI sequences to see how they sounded in the context of a full mix, and found virtually nothing there I wanted to or could use, though I could see some merits in Bassline and nanosampler. That was my experience. One guy's experience. I'm sorry it wasn't the same as your experience. Yet, because I haven't spent twenty years or so programming synths or bothered to sit down and create my own sound bank for Proton, I'm apparently both "wrong" and "telling falsehoods". You even somehow brought in some crazy conspiracy theory about people working for Apple and/or Digidesign posting on this forum and smearing MOTU's good name with lies. Believe me, I wish I worked for Apple. I'd have a damn sight faster computer than this three-year-old MacBook.

As far as you not wanting to "back down" or "agreeing to disagree", there's nothing here to back down from or agreeing to disagree about. This isn't some sort of a fight or a war, they're opinions, the end. I don't know how you do it, but I form my own opinions based on personal criteria, not because somebody goes into a three-paragraph explanation of how to program Modulo. I have no intention on changing your opinion and I promise you that, especially after this, you're certainly not going to change mine. If we shouldn't say anything critical about DP, even as a personal statement, maybe you guys should make that one of the rules of attending this forum, or ban anyone who dares to present an opposing viewpoint. However, considering no software in history is free of glitches, problems or even the inability to please all of its users all of the time, you might find the "DP is sunshine and flowers" approach does as much or even more harm to your cause than someone being publicly critical of it. If some schmuck like me stating "I don't like the bundled VIs" on this forum is all it will take to topple the MOTU empire, they've definitely got bigger problems to deal with than putting a chorus feature on Polysynth.

[jjhp3]

Well, I've read it all and what resulted was my renewed interest in DP's VIs. Especially MIDI control of all the parameters. Using DP 6.02, Modulo is the -only- VI with ...easy... MIDI control. The only VI with control-click access to the MIDI receive facility. The other 4 VI's use NRPNs to control lots of parameters, however, as someone with a good bit of MIDI experience, NRPN's are a bit of a pain - anyone care to explain how to use an external MIDI controller (V-Synth, Alesis X25 or my Buchla Lightning) with DP's VI's in this manner?

Thanks!

John

[Shooshie]

Armageddon, no matter how you slice it, you were damned critical of the synths in DP, and you had no reason to be other than a lack of suitable presets. Why didn't you just say that instead of trying to make them sound worthless. (go back and read your own posts, and others)

All I'm asking for is to reconsider your approach. Why not come here with a "glass is half full" approach instead of " look at how empty that ridiculous glass is!" Nobody's asking you to pretend it's full. But you're pretending it's empty. (again, go back and read your posts; I did several times, and each time I get the same message: it's the emptiest glass in the industry)

If you can't see that, then further attempts to show it to you would be as much a waste of time as my previous attempts have been. But I'll say it in a different way: you or I could create and record a fantastic composition using nothing but DP's bundled synths and effects. There's no denying it.

Shooshie

[bezzy]

I think the VI's in DP sound quite good but I can see how some people would write them off as they are very basic and limited. They should really add the MX4 to DP and call it a day.

Just a side note the new synths in Cubase Blow in my opinion but the halion one which I guess is some what similar to nano sampler has some killer samples now.

This thread is quite silly now but I think if you read between the lines no one is saying the synths suck but they are giving their honest opinion. What is so wrong with that?

[Shooshie]

This thread is quite silly now but I think if you read between the lines no one is saying the synths suck but they are giving their honest opinion. What is so wrong with that?

Honest opinions we like. But the OP asked about DP's synths, and the first page of posts were basically uninformative about DP's synths. Further, they characterized them as useless without attempting to describe what they really can do. That's dishonest, IMO. Probably not dishonest so much as just irresponsible. Either way, it didn't help convey the utility of these synths to the original poster.

If this were an isolated case, it would be forgettable, but the wave of negativity that has swept this board since DP6 has got to be stopped. DP7 is a new day. DP6 is over now. Things are good again, mostly. Still lots of room for improvement, but we'll get that by persuasion, not by bashing. Anyway, this thread was the straw that broke the camel's back, the leak that burst the dam; I couldn't stand it anymore, so I took a stand and called the bashers on their BS. What's wrong with THAT?

If the early posts in this thread seemed like gentle, honest opinions, and not bashing, then we're in worse shape than I thought.

Shooshie

PS: I use some of the most sophisticated software in the industry, but it's very important to me to remember to realize that the basic tools are all you need to create great music. DP's synths -- like their EQ's and Dynamics Processors, are basic tools, but when you get into them you find there's more than meets the eye. They are quite good for basic tools.

[sdfalk]

They are quite good for basic tools

Yes...they are.
I've met, and worked with people who cut basic ideas on tape based 4 tracks 4 TRACKS
for christ sake!!!
They sounded amazing (all things considered) for rough scratch tracks.
Some of these "rough tracks" were even used in final recordings.
Yet here we have people complaining about the quality of built in synths/plugins in
a sequencer program??
Geez.
I usually don't get that involved in "discussions" like this, but come on..
This is the undead topic that's been repeatedly regurgitated again and again.
DP7 is working, it (appears) to be stable, and all my third party plugins AND stock
DP plugins are very happy.
Some of the patches I worked on for Modulo are sounding pretty cool to...
Using it in a sound design piece.
WOW!!!! Say it ain't so!

[dinobass]

I was going to come into the thread and say something, but I planned to lie so I guess I can't say anything.

An example of a first page post that bashes the bundled VIs, Shooshie? Honestly, when I read that, I didn't think James was bashing DP but just expressing an opinion that he didn't find the VIs useful (an opinion that I share). I don't think those VIs are even close to the strengths and focus of DP, just sorta an appendix, so really, who cares.

But then I saw James' posts about people whining about the bundled VIs and bashing DP, and something about vultures, so maybe I misunderstood his first post.

[James Steele]

I was going to come into the thread and say something, but I planned to lie so I guess I can't say anything.

An example of a first page post that bashes the bundled VIs, Shooshie? Honestly, when I read that, I didn't think James was bashing DP but just expressing an opinion that he didn't find the VIs useful (an opinion that I share). I don't think those VIs are even close to the strengths and focus of DP, just sorta an appendix, so really, who cares.

But then I saw James' posts about people whining about the bundled VIs and bashing DP, and something about vultures, so maybe I misunderstood his first post.

You must have. My first post was merely a playful joke, as the OP requested "Honest Opinions." Maybe I'm just an oddball, but that's pretty much the only opinion I know how to give... so it was a little joke about specifying "honest" opinions, the implication being that without specifically requesting they be honest, one might receive some other kind (i.e. "dishonest")? It was NOT meant as a slam on DP's VIs.

[Mr. Quimper]

I haven't read this whole thread, but as per the original title, I have to ask...DP has synths? Last time I checked it was a sequencer/DAW...synths are something that you hook up to your DAW or plug into it, right? Does it come with monitors and keyboards too?

Seriously, I've never touched the included stuff and haven't found a need to. I thought we wanted DP to be the best DAW on the planet, not the best synthesizer, sampler, guitar emulator, etc, etc...and I doubt they measure up anyway. I wouldn't expect them to. The fact that so many plug-ins in DP are so excellent (Leveler, EQ, ProVerb) is a major bonus...( after all, all I really want is automatic backups ) I complain about stability issues and such w/ DP and some workflow issues, but I've never complained about the synths. I do blame Apple for this expectation that your DAW should come fully loaded with everything you could possibly think of (when they threw in compressor and Sountrack Pro, I almost fainted)...

...hell, coming from Pro Tools, I thought DP5 was a freakin' steal when I bought it for $500 with timecode, delay compensation, surround, unlimited tracks, etc...you want synths too???? Digi charges you that much just be able to open OMF files!!! I didn't even know it came synths when I bought DP and felt like I was getting away with robbery anyway! (and Pro Tools still doesn't have a decent EQ (well, not as good as MWEQ) or Reverb...well, I haven't tried 8 yet, but I doubt it...do they include dozens of synths w/ LE now too?)

In any case, from another perspective, I think the whole discussion here on Apple's business decisions in regard to their DAW would be interesting if Apple had managed to buy MOTU instead of EMagic and we were all using Apple Performer Pro 9 that included Ethno, MSI, MX4, Mach 5 etc for $500...

[Armageddon]

Armageddon, no matter how you slice it, you were damned critical of the synths in DP, and you had no reason to be other than a lack of suitable presets. Why didn't you just say that instead of trying to make them sound worthless. (go back and read your own posts, and others)

All I'm asking for is to reconsider your approach. Why not come here with a "glass is half full" approach instead of " look at how empty that ridiculous glass is!" Nobody's asking you to pretend it's full. But you're pretending it's empty. (again, go back and read your posts; I did several times, and each time I get the same message: it's the emptiest glass in the industry)

If you can't see that, then further attempts to show it to you would be as much a waste of time as my previous attempts have been. But I'll say it in a different way: you or I could create and record a fantastic composition using nothing but DP's bundled synths and effects. There's no denying it.

Shooshie, I actually said this on page two of this topic in response to one of your earlier posts:

Modulo and Proton don't sound bad, and you have a point: if all I had were the DP VIs, I could certainly make do with 'em. They're not terrible or anything.

... and while I realize that's damning it with faint praise, I agreed with you at that point as well as now. The DP VIs don't sound bad, they're certainly not badly done and whatever criticisms I lay on them are strictly from the perspective of my personal taste, not from MOTU's programming. You or I or anyone on here could use these VIs to create music. Hell, I used to write demos on a mini-key Yamaha FM synth powered by D batteries (I wish to God I could remember the product number), and we're light years past all that.

I also have a feeling that this is probably all for naught, since, at the rate DP seems to be going, they'll likely introduce something else into the mix on 8. Maybe integrating the UVI workstation, which works on the same engine as their sample instruments, and adding a comprehensive sample set to get somebody started? Or putting one of their flagship VIs onboard? Maybe even a new synth that offers something else we haven't seen yet? I dunno. But they seem to be adding features specifically targeted to keep up with the competition, so it would make sense if they went that way.

[jefvTaon]

to me the DP VI's are an add-on. i dont program and depend on tweaking presets... if they were as slick as the main bits DP would be twice the price. also, i like getting another perspective, and its fun to shop around for VI's man. different layout concepts/colors are good for keeping creativity in the mind jostled. i think its great they are there for folks that can only afford to splash out on DP. and in the end necessity is the mother of invention, right?