Honest Opinion about DP Virtual Synths

[James Steele]

Yes, drum machine was the wrong term for it but as far as I know Battery is the same way.
I don't see why that would prevent you from loading MIDI grooves.
DP does MIDI well so you don't need the step sequencer. Just loads the grooves into DP itself. Or make up your own in the Graphic or Drum editor.
Actually the stock sounds aren't all THAT bad for electronic stuff but as I was saying you can load your own samples very easily.

True... and I'm sure you can use it with something like Toontrack EZ Player Free or EZ Player Pro just fine.

[Shooshie]

You see? This is where I fear I start losing credibility. You guys all have bad things to say about the MOTU Synth VI's, and yet I find them to be quite wonderful. One of them is modeled (right down to the interface) after a really fine classic synth (Roland Juno 106). Others are unique. If you're a "slap on a patch" kind of guy, then I can see why you'd not think highly of these synths, since they just come with a few examples thrown together by someone at MOTU; very possibly by Magic Dave in a hurry to get it out the door with some example patches.

But if you came up in this new age by programming your own synths, and if you remember what it was like to program a DX7 or Roland or any of the older boxes, you should appreciate these synths. I once did a pretty long post here on using these, complete with shortcuts and suggestions, IIRC. Probably even demos. I don't know. All I can say is that when I come up with an idea for a sound, I can create it in one or more of these VI's.

Here's what I like the most about these synths: they've bypassed tons of complexity by combining the way the knobs work together. Proton, for example, has very few controls, but if you know the basic harmonic structure you're looking for, you can dial that in on one side, then dial the frequency modifications into it on the other, and with a couple of other controls fine tune it to sound like almost anything in that AWF FM style.

Modulo is nothing short of amazing. You can't have programmed Modulo for very long without arriving at that same conclusion.

Basses? Man, you've GOT to like all that you can get out of Bassline. It's great! What's not to like? That's not a rhetorical question. Really, why don't you like Bassline? Why are you so different from me, in that I happen to love these synths?

Let me tell you; I started out with the same knee-jerk response you guys have reported. I thought MOTU had bought some cheap synths off of someone to throw into DP and say " see? We can do what Logic does." But people started asking for reports on how to use them, so I dug in and started learning. The more I used them and learned about them, the wider my eyes and ears were getting. Soon I was thinking "WOW! This is GREAT!"

So, you people who have nothing good to say about these instruments, I want to ask you a direct question with the expectation of an honest, direct answer: Have you really put in the time on these instruments to learn them and know what they can and cannot do? It's easy to say they don't work well enough for you. It's a little harder to sit down and program sounds that you want.

Did you know that the controls of these synths are 100% (or close to it) MIDI learnable? Yep, right-click and send. That's all there is to it.

So, tell me guys. Why DON'T you like these instruments? What makes them inferior to any other instrument? They're obviously not for kids. They require knowledge that you only get from experience, and the farther back your synth roots go, the better programmer of these synths you'll be. I used to not think twice about responding to threads like this; I wasn't interested in these little "toy synths" that MOTU had thrown in, and there was nothing to defend. Then I learned to use them. Man, these are professional-quality instruments. I have to speak up here. I'm QUITE sure that I'm not as expert as most of you when it comes to electronic instruments, as I spent the 80's and 90's trying to make my electronic boxes sound like real instruments -- a misguided adventure recommended only for Don Quixote types. But in the process, I learned those boxes inside out. I knew what every control did, and I knew how to get exactly the sound I wanted -- within the limits of the instruments. It's that knowledge that made me very quickly realize that MOTU's synths were actually VERY well thought-out. Proton and Modulo are wonderfully innovative, IMO.

But you won't know it if you don't try them. They use so little CPU space that you can even use multiple instances of them combined for even more effects.

Honestly, I don't get it, folks. What's the problem?

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

Someone said something about these VI's lack of a step-record system and grooves. Am I reading this right? Did you really mean to say that? This is Digital Performer, man! You've got your mind stuck in the box: the rack-mounted box. These VI's can be combined with the full power of DP's infinite MIDI capabilities, audio plugins: LFO's, rhythmic effects, Pattern Gate, Multimode Filter, ring modulator, delay, Sonic Modulator, and many, many more, including the new guitar stomp boxes.

Really, are you THINKING?

I look at all this stuff and think: "Wow, imagine what you could DO with all this!"

shoosh

[Shooshie]

One more, and I'm off this thread, at least for now:

I challenge any of you creative electronic music types to sit down with NOTHING BUT Digital Performer -- DP7, preferably -- and write the most kick-a$$ stuff you can come up with. Try combining the sounds with DP's other features -- drum tracks, grooves, Polar, various plugins (don't forget the MIDI plugins), compressors, etc. and just see what you can make it do.

Make your intent to wow us. I cannot imagine someone being at a loss for tools here.

Shooshie

[cuttime]

Allright, I'll bite. I agree with Shooshie that the MOTU VIs are really utilitarian. Modulo is very close to an MX4 "lite", but the content and sound is really spot on. The programming is very similar, if you are not impressed, then may I suggest that you really have not spent enough time with the VI. NanoSampler is a gem, some of the sampler factory layers are wonderful. Check out the Warr guitars. If those factory layers are not there, then it is possible that you have not completed your DP5 to DP 5.13 upgrade path properly. I created a patchlist that I keep on a DP clippings window that documents the sound qualities of the NanoSampler factory layers. Please note, these qualities are totally subjective:

Nanosampler Layers

1. brass
2. thunk synth brass
3. epiano synth brass
4.
5. clav synbrass
6. pluck flute synbrass
7. epiano flute synbrass detune
8. pluck shaka flute
9. string vio
10. synlead string
11. sharp distorted syn strings
12. wah syn string
13. fliter string synth
14. string synth
15. dist guit string
16. synth repeated percs
17. pluck breath flute
18. synbrass synstring
19. filter clav
20. stab syn brass dist
21. perc syn brass
22. pluck filter synth
23. synbell string
24. pizz string
25. zipper synstring filter
26. perc dull string
27. guit string
28. hammond string
29. phase syn string
30. syn brass string phased
31. flute string ghost
32. shaka flute calliope
33. moog string
34. melodica string
35. bent vocal fx
36. glock synbrass
37. pluck syn string
38. pluck breath vocal
39. bass flute string
40. perc synflute
41. syn string brass
42. detune pluck shaka flute
43. moog lead bottle
44. acouguit filtvoc
45. pluck syn brass
46.
47.elecguit filter synflute
48. weezy detune synth
49. reedy breathy
50. pluck moog wheezy synth
51. moog high freq wheeze
52. sizzling synth string
53.
54. scratch noise synfifths
55. pluck filter moog lead wheeze
56. tom synth
57. key noise reed
58. guit harm twitter
59. 12 str synth
60. dist guit keys stringy
61. reedy 12 str
62. less paul in space
63. 12string string
64. elecguit filterbeats
65. guit bell warble
66. orch hit fifth flute sustain
67. hammond string wheeze fifth
68. filter perc noise beats
69. perc syn filter fade
70. hammond syn sweps
71. hammond synth string
72. snare hammond synth str
73. pluck synth str
74. filter pluck syn str
75. hammond filter str
76.
77.
78. burping hammond sweep
79. breathy hammond sust
80. filter stab brass
81. flute fifth string
82. rosin filter sweep
83. pluck noise synth
84. syn brass noise layer
85. syn brass noise vocal sorta layer
86. noisy brass fifths
87.bent strings followed by glass
88.
89.
90, pluck syn detune warble
91. air organ ghost
92. voice roll ghost
93. syn brass airy detune
94.
95.
96. airy detune syn brass
97.
98.
99.
100. gut guit airy pad sustain
101. bell guit air
102. airy pluck sustain
103. airy pluck sustain high register
104. airy pluck synth sustain
105. airy pluck organ
106.
107. synth lead fifth air
108. clav lead fifth air
109. clav voc noise
110. pluck noise filter
111.
112. synth stab brass
113. pluck synth pad fifths
114.
115.airy synth pluck hard
116. glassy hard fifths
117. moogy hard fifths
118. sharp moogy hard fifths
119. hollow perc sharp moogy fifths
120. burp synth fifth
121. pluck high register
122. noise pluck high str guit
123.
124. low reg puck str guit
125. noisy perc guit
126.
127.
128. noisy perc guit oriental
129.zipper perc guit oriental
130.
131.
132. delayed pluck synth
133.
134. delayed pizza
135.
136.
137. delayed elec giut
138. delayed plck perc marimba
139.
140. delayed synth filter
141. delayed woody pluck
142.
143.
144.
145.
146.
147.
148.
149.
150. delayed guitat pluck

[visconti]

I think I can safely say that I'll use nanosampler in every project. It's the simplest, yet most useful "VI" I've ever used. I mean, the fact that you can drag and drop ANY audio instance, including recorded parts from your project, and have complete control over basic envelopes and filters makes it an indispensable sound design tool when combined with all of DP's amazing features. No other daw implements a sampler like this, (except maybe FL studio, which technically is a multichannel nanosampler on steroids ) and even that won't have DP's MIDI functionality.

Of course there are samplers that can do that and more, but not ONE that is as CPU efficient and simple to use, let alone free!

I haven't delved into the other VI's too much yet, but as Shooshie said I'm sure they are more intuitive than you think.

[Armageddon]

Yes, drum machine was the wrong term for it but as far as I know Battery is the same way.
I don't see why that would prevent you from loading MIDI grooves.
DP does MIDI well so you don't need the step sequencer. Just loads the grooves into DP itself. Or make up your own in the Graphic or Drum editor.
Actually the stock sounds aren't all THAT bad for electronic stuff but as I was saying you can load your own samples very easily.

Sorry, my turn to admit using the wrong terminology (and this also goes out to Shoosh) -- when I say I wish it was a drum machine, I wish it was actually a drum machine, like a hardware drum machine that came either equipped with a set of simple one-measure patterns or had the ability to store step-written patterns that you could then trigger via MIDI beat clocks. Like a ... drum machine. iDrum is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. In fact, iDrum and Model-12 are very similar; you can even load up your own samples and mix in a similar fashion to Model-12, except that iDrum has that added ability to record and play patterns triggered by MIDI beat clocks, load MIDI grooves and even chain patterns together like a hardware drum machine. Certainly, I could have Model-12 play a MIDI groove, but then, I have umpteen sampled VI drum kits that can also do that. I can even just trigger loops from a VI. Like I said in my previous post, some people like using it for scratch drum tracks, or even production, apparently, but the application I would have personally gotten the most use out of would have been as a time-keeping software drum machine.

nanosampler is definitely a worthwhile VI, if for no other reason than for triggering your own quickie samples without the hassle of creating actual playable samples for a sampler VI (or if you don't want to lay in soundbites manually in an audio track), and the bass synth is handy if you need a nice, sub-octave analog synth bass and don't feel like loading up your Minimoog emulator. The others ... eh. Shooshie, we had this long talk in another post in the forum ages ago where, as a programmer/tweaker, you got a lot of use out of the other VIs, and as somebody who prefers to just drop in a great sound and sweat using it with minimal tweaking (I go no further than adjust decays or attacks a little, or turning off layers in multi-layered sounds if I don't like everything I hear), I didn't.

Interesting that you also still compare the Polysynth to the Juno-106 -- why didn't MOTU just break down and make it a straight-up emulation, complete with the chorus(es), the patch list and the ability to import 106 settings (examples: both FM8, which is a Yamaha DX-7 emulation, can import DX-7 data, same for the virtual Korg M-1 and WAVESTATION)? As it is, it's certainly not bad, but unless my memory is coloring things a lot rosier than they actually were, Polysynth seems to lack the fatness of the Juno sound. It could be the chorus, or it could even be that, while similar, Polysynth is missing some of the key analog-emulating ingredients that made the 106 what it was. I've done some scratch tracks with Polysynth, but always wound up replacing it with something meatier. Modulo and Proton don't sound bad, and you have a point: if all I had were the DP VIs, I could certainly make do with 'em. They're not terrible or anything. Unfortunately, compared to any commercially-released VI, their features are limited, their presets aren't mind-blowing (again, I'm not speaking to the programmers/tweakers, I'm speaking to everyone) and if you have a halfway-decent collection of soft-synths, you pretty much forget you even have access to Modulo and Proton. In fact, it took me about ten minutes into this post to remember their names. That doesn't say anything about their abilities as instruments, and I'm sure, at some point down the road, I'll load up a Modulo or Proton sound and it will fit perfectly with what I'm doing. I just don't consider the included VIs to be DP's strong suit.

One more thing ... should we start considering that UVI workstation as an "included instrument"? How awesome would it be if they actually put together a complete core set of useful sounds, maybe even a GM set, just to get you started? Then, I would agree that you could probably get by with just the stock DP VIs for your basic needs.

[hrw]

used DP for years and never used them...

[bOing]

What is this, a love-in!!!???

In my case I can explain my bias more as a product of my desire for convenience. I have my hands full trying to write the songs that I want to hear and trying to make that a reality amidst the learning curve and misfires of using computers and software. I play guitar and bass and drums pretty well and I also write on keyboards a lot - although my playing technique and programming skill are doubtful in this area. My point is that when I'm struggling to write perfect parts for all of these instruments, I'm less inclined to sit down for the next 2-5 years and become Rick Wakeman's little brother.

It's my character, too. I'm not a big fan of manuals, and so learning about music from an intellectual or perhaps "left brain" perspective has never been on my top 10 list of musical to-dos. And when I listened to the presets of the DP VIs, I didn't get the same feeling as when I first listened to the presets of FM7, B4, The Grand, or even LM4 when I entered the world of VIs. So for a guy like me, that first impression is important. Secondly, I have tinkered with the sounds on Modulo. It's the better of the bunch from my unique perspective. But it still leaves me feeling like we're only friends when I want to be more.

[he said, ending on a poetic note.]

[jloeb]

They're fine quality synths, and an integrated (if feature-slim) drag-and-droppable sampler is a great feature to have in a DAW. But from a competitive standpoint (i.e. what is Logic etc bundling with the DAW in order to impress the easily impressable), they are not what they need to be and I think MOTU does need to correct this sooner rather than later. In the past few years they have been correcting it with frightening speed and deadly accuracy on the FX end; now they need to beef up the included VI suite. It's time.

And that has to have crossed somebody at MOTU's mind. This is pure conjecture, but I sometimes wonder whether they get resistance to increased bundling from Univers Sons, their contracted VI development partner and independent marketer of UVI Workstation and associated soundcards etc, or even whether their licensing agreement would permit such. If there's a problem there, that needs to be corrected and UVI needs to be reminded that they should want to keep their main client happy by keeping the bundle with their DAW nice and fat and competitive. There is plenty of room between a) what DP is currently bundled with and b) giving too much away for free.

[Splinter]

This is where I fear I start losing credibility.

Gone. Toast. Lost forever

... if you came up in this new age by programming your own synths, and if you remember what it was like to program a DX7 or Roland or any of the older boxes, you should appreciate these synths.

Been there. Done that. These sound nothing like the real thing.

Why DON'T you like these instruments? What makes them inferior to any other instrument?

Sound. They're thin and plastic-like. I haven't spent time with them because after trying to make them work, tweaking the sound never got me what I wanted.

Unfortunately, compared to any commercially-released VI, their features are limited, their presets aren't mind-blowing (again, I'm not speaking to the programmers/tweakers, I'm speaking to everyone) and if you have a halfway-decent collection of soft-synths, you pretty much forget you even have access to Modulo and Proton. In fact, it took me about ten minutes into this post to remember their names.

Exactly. They are completely forgettable.

[Splinter]

... from a competitive standpoint (i.e. what is Logic etc bundling with the DAW in order to impress the easily impressable), they are not what they need to be and I think MOTU does need to correct this sooner rather than later.

Instead we've been developing guitar pedal plugs.

Seriously, DP has the weakest offering of bundled VIs of all the biggies, and as someone pointed out, even Garageband's VIs smoke DP's.

[bOing]

Okay, next person, let's see what you got.

[Armageddon]

Seriously, DP has the weakest offering of bundled VIs of all the biggies, and as someone pointed out, even Garageband's VIs smoke DP's.

I pointed that out and, yes, it's true, after continually forgetting I even have GarageBand installed on my machine (and this is 2006 GarageBand that came bundled with Tiger, mind you), I opened it up last week and messed around with some of the sounds. There's no contest. Not only is there a better overall selection of sounds to work with, but most of them have their own FX presets already attached (compression, reverb, etc.). I was pretty startled, actually, because I was half-expecting everything to sound really hokey, but there's some great stuff, the GM drum kits sound awesome, there's a couple of velocity-switching acoustic instruments and a lot of nice, fat-sounding synths (not clear if they're actually synths or samples of synths). Unfortunately, they come bundled with and can only be used in GarageBand. Blecccch.

Again, I'm not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth. The DP VIs are free, and if you're just starting out and those are all you have, I'm sure you can put together some nice-sounding songs with them. Or if you're a tweaker and you enjoy programming your own sounds, I'm sure there's a bit to enjoy there. I just haven't heard anything amongst those VIs that personally makes me want to use them on anything.

One thing we keep forgetting is, unlike Apple, MOTU is actually also selling a bunch of cross-platform VIs, and since the DP customer base is probably most likely the first bunch to want to purchase these VIs, I assume they're not trying to compete with their own product. I still say they ought to loosen the pursestrings a little and at least provide a full GM set (and not a cheap-sounding GM set, either!) for the UVI workstation you get gratis with DP, which would get everybody excited for both the UVI workstation and for the VI possibilities of DP. Either that or maybe bundle at least one full-on VI, like the Classic Keys VI/FX rack or Ethno or even the orchestral VI (my vote!).

[Prime Mover]

I just started using the synths the other day, and only mildly. Out of all of them, the only one I needed for the track I was doing was the drum synth. I have to say, it was pretty nice, however, for doing electronic drums, it was a bit stale. After searching through the entire bank of default electric kick samples, I finally broke down and recorded one of the defaults off of my old Alesis QS8... this is a low-end sampler that's over 10 years old, and has about 4 electonic kick sounds! That's not very promissing. However, the interface was easy to use, and I really started to jive with the output signal flow options. But it just could use so much more. I ended up running it out to numberous aux channels just to do EQing and envelope filters. The resonance filters onboard are okay, but they only seem to wet your appitite for more filter and EQ options, hence the bussing.

So, for Model12:

interface: great
features: basic
preloaded samples: okay

desperately needs: EQ, Envilope Filter, and Amplitude Envilope (screw the Gate/Decay switch, that thing needs to DIE!).

But ya know, for inputing interesting sound effects, especially if you've recorded/mixed them before hand, this thing is pretty cool.

PS: Anyone know if any of the onboard VIs include a basic whitenoise/pink noise generator. I'm trying to add low end to some of the kick sounds using some keying/ducking, but I had to come up with something really weird to work okay. What do you guys do?