String runs using samples question (and more...)

[Frodo]

MEA CULPA!

Hey EA--

My apologies. I keep forgetting that in this forum I have an EDIT button active on everyone's post. I hit the wrong button and am trying restore your entire post....

[MIDI Life Crisis]

MEA CULPA!

Hey EA--

My apologies. I keep forgetting that in this forum I have an EDIT button active on everyone's post. I hit the wrong button and am trying restore your entire post....

So it's not just me who does that?! LOL BTW, I've often used "mia cupla" but it appears you are correct, it is more commonly (and properly) mea cuple, or in this instance, youa cupla.

[Frodo]

MEA CULPA!

Hey EA--

My apologies. I keep forgetting that in this forum I have an EDIT button active on everyone's post. I hit the wrong button and am trying restore your entire post....

So it's not just me who does that?! LOL BTW, I've often used "mia cupla" but it appears you are correct, it is more commonly (and properly) mea cuple, or in this instance, youa cupla.

Nope-- you are not the only one. Welcome me to the club!!

I can't seem to restore the original post-- it feels just awful. I'm going to have to use the Preview button every time now.

And-- "mia" is Italian, but "mea" is Latin. That's close enough.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

And-- "mia" is Italian, but "mea" is Latin. That's close enough.

That 'splains it! So how did you get so smart - oh yeah, The Ring. You're just another hobbit w/o it!

Thanks for the Italio-Latin lesson.

[Frodo]

And-- "mia" is Italian, but "mea" is Latin. That's close enough.

That 'splains it! So how did you get so smart - oh yeah, The Ring. You're just another hobbit w/o it!

Thanks for the Italio-Latin lesson.

No, not the Ring. That just makes one stupid. LOL... as with trying to quote a post instead of editing it!

Smart? Not at all. A few years singing in choruses in HS and college helped, plus a little Google still comes in handy!

[Nigel Keay]

I I had a listen to both Frodo's and EA's examples, so speaking as a string player there's something about Frodo's that hints at separate bow strokes without going that far, so for me the idea of the notes falling under one bow stroke which is how it certainly would be done at that speed is more convincing in EA's example. As for the trills at the end they'd probably have more attack in real life as they'd probably (although not certainly) be done with separate bow strokes. Just my .02 cents as a viola player.

in a passage like that real players would be striving to play it with computer-like accuracy, as in a computer not trying to imitate humans....

[Frodo]

I I had a listen to both Frodo's and EA's examples, so speaking as a string player there's something about Frodo's that hints at separate bow strokes without going that far, so for me the idea of the notes falling under one bow stroke which is how it certainly would be done at that speed is more convincing in EA's example. As for the trills at the end they'd probably have more attack in real life as they'd probably (although not certainly) be done with separate bow strokes. Just my .02 cents as a viola player.

in a passage like that real players would be striving to play it with computer-like accuracy, as in a computer not trying to imitate humans....

Not quite sure how to digest this-- so I'll chew on it in an effort to learning something from a string player!

But that's the quandary, isn't it? Getting the computer to sound like a string section and avoiding the computer-like accuracy-- which occurs in reality-- when?

[kinnylandrum]

Also, what would be some recommendations about which pop songs (especially ballads) have awesome string arrangements?

No one much has answered this part of the question. For me some of the best pop string arranging was Paul Buckmaster's stuff for early Elton John records, especially Tumbleweed Connection and Madman Across The Water. In particular, talking about runs, that stuff on the end of Burn Down The Mission is brilliant. What I like about it best is the muscularity. In fact the writing on Levon has always reminded me of a rhythm electric guitar, like Keith Richard playing a string section. Buckmaster's ballad writing is great as well, but it's the rocking stuff that really sends me.

[Frodo]

I I had a listen to both Frodo's and EA's examples, so speaking as a string player there's something about Frodo's that hints at separate bow strokes without going that far, so for me the idea of the notes falling under one bow stroke which is how it certainly would be done at that speed is more convincing in EA's example.

After some more thought, I must raise the question of how many notes in this particular extended passage are played on any one bow? I have a pretty good idea from looking at the score-- so there *are* separate bows-- lots of them-- and the original recording is certainly much more revealing in this regard than what I could pull off.

I suppose to some extent we have in our heads the concept of what a passage like this would ideally sound like using VIs in a "perfect world", but doesn't that play against reality just little bit?

I ask this because where my example doesn't line up with the real recording are exactly those places where the real orchestra might rush or drag when my note entry tends to be a lot closer to being metronomic and lacks "enough" consideration for bow changes, imho. I just have a feeling that we tend to listen to real players a little differently than we listen to VIs.

Just curious-- and not at all questioning EA's excellent example in any way.

[Elektroakoustika]

I I had a listen to both Frodo's and EA's examples, so speaking as a string player there's something about Frodo's that hints at separate bow strokes without going that far, so for me the idea of the notes falling under one bow stroke which is how it certainly would be done at that speed is more convincing in EA's example.

After some more thought, I must raise the question of how many notes in this particular extended passage are played on any one bow? I have a pretty good idea from looking at the score-- so there *are* separate bows-- lots of them-- and the original recording is certainly much more revealing in this regard than what I could pull off.

I suppose to some extent we have in our heads the concept of what a passage like this would ideally sound like using VIs in a "perfect world", but doesn't that play against reality just little bit?

I ask this because where my example doesn't line up with the real recording are exactly those places where the real orchestra might rush or drag when my note entry tends to be a lot closer to being metronomic and lacks "enough" consideration for bow changes, imho. I just have a feeling that we tend to listen to real players a little differently than we listen to VIs.

Just curious-- and not at all questioning EA's excellent example in any way.

Bow Strokes is always an interested subject. Even more interesting when they're virtual!!! I didn't even spend close to enough time working on my demo to be so meticulous with the bowing. There are a couple of obvious places I tried to put a strong down bow in but other than that it really wasn't my objective. My main objective was to see how close I could get to the blending sound of a thick orchestra section. I think my demo succeeds with that to a point, but still does not have the true blending you get with 16 real violins playing.

I don't think we'll be able to create a convincing example unless the sample companies somehow find a way to record or program EXTREMELY FAST legato transitions. Which I can't even imagine how hard that would be. The slower to medium speed legato transitions seem to be starting to shine with companies like VSL and LASS really stepping forward with their techniques. But it still isn't perfect.

One of the things I would have wished for was an up bow start to some a line. For example, if I had a group of violins coming into a melodic passage at FFF on a pickup note, I don't want my first note to sound like a giant strong down bow! I want that first note to come in like a true up bow. I can fake around this by riding the expression or velocity crossfading, but that only goes so far and usually does not produce the kind of sound I want.

I think a fascinating product would be one that actually had samples for both bow directions. When you played spiccato or staccato passages it would actually switch bow directions in order to create a more realistic sound. Also it would be nice to have a detache patch that did this also. LASS fakes rebowing a single note pretty well if you hold down the sustain pedal and play the note over again. But still not to the point I would like it to be. I guess I'm spoiled since I often work with real string players where I get to do all these details.

Sorry for the very scattered ideas. My mind is a bit on the random side this morning.

-ea

[Frodo]

Yes-- I agree that VSL has taken some important steps forward in the bowing department. The fast repetition patches are set up just for that purpose, especially where repeating the same note is concerned--- alternate samples are triggered, but it's not quite as predictable as EW's "round robin" repetitions.

I can't comment on LASS only because I've never used it. From the results I've heard, it seems that some important considerations have been made in this regard, but I'll trust your word on the point that bow mastery still has a ways to go with even the best libraries out there.

I suppose with enough time, tweaking, and twiddling one could get even more convincing results, but it's safe to say that the amount of time involved for interpolating convincing bowings is probably more than it yet needs to be.

It raises another interesting series of questions:

We know that virtual instruments will always be virtual. While we envision a mock-up being at least nearly indistinguishable from the real thing, something in our collective spirits doubts this eventuality.

So-- how convincing do virtual mock-ups really *need* to be? They shouldn't sound so synthetic that they distract the listener from a decent musical idea, but what is it going to take to get a virtual string section to the next level, how much does it need to cost, and is the expense worth it?

[Elektroakoustika]

We know that virtual instruments will always be virtual. While we envision a mock-up being at least nearly indistinguishable from the real thing, something in our collective spirits doubts this eventuality.

So-- how convincing do virtual mock-ups really *need* to be? They shouldn't sound so synthetic that they distract the listener from a decent musical idea, but what is it going to take to get a virtual string section to the next level, how much does it need to cost, and is the expense worth it?

Its quite interesting; I can show a mockup of mine to a non-musical person and they won't be be able to tell that its not a real live orchestra playing it. I've even had clients that can't really tell the difference. But since us musicians listen to the real thing all the time, we know what it "should" sound like. But in fact for many purposes, we don't need to make it sound like it would with real live people playing it. The only time I get nit picky about how my mockup sounds is when I know its going to eventually be performed by actual musicians. In any other case, I am trying to please my client and end up with something that sounds very very good, if not insanely realistic.

Then comes the issue of time. Its something that really closes in on all of us. We all have deadlines and we all have to meet those deadlines. Thus the nit picking of what we would like to do can't always happen. Trust me, I'd like to write a piece of music and then rip it apart for a few days until it sounds almost perfect. But I don't have the TIME. I usually have a few projects running at the same time so each one needs to get some attention before I polish the others. I do what I can with the time I'm given and I usually like it nonetheless. I'm just not always jumping around the living room in glee about it.

Frodo, you bring up a good point. What would it cost to make a realistic recording? I wish I had a little elf who would go into my music after I wrote it and edit it, mix it, and master it for me to my liking. But the fact is that elves aren't real. For me, the cost of taking a virtual string section to the next level (and by next level I mean as realistic as possible) would be only if I got commissioned by a large symphony orchestra or to do a medium to high budget film. Then I'd be working my tail off to get the best dang mockups I could get so I could get a clear representation of what it would sound like with the live performers. Until then, I will keep writing music that sounds as good as it can with the time I am given. I think thats all I can do right now.

Hey Frodo, you should call up Gandalf. See if he has any special enchantment he can put on your computer to make this editing happen within seconds! As for me, I'm going to take my chances with Saruman. He owes me after I fixed his toilet in Isengard.

cheers,
ea

[bongo_x]

If you played the violin you could add a couple of tracks of the real stuff mixed very quietly in there. Just a few would might be enough to suggest the real thing, and add a little character. Or just have a friend or someone you could hire available to do it, just record it in your living room.

I've worked on a few pop songs where we recorded real strings, then added some cheasy triton strings or something like that real low underneath it. You never hear it, but it sounds bigger.

Just an idea.

bb

[FMiguelez]

So-- how convincing do virtual mock-ups really *need* to be? They shouldn't sound so synthetic that they distract the listener from a decent musical idea, but what is it going to take to get a virtual string section to the next level, how much does it need to cost, and is the expense worth it?

I've always considered doing mockups IS an art form of its own.
Let's face it. Samples will NEVER sound just like the real thing. They will sound close. Very close. But that should not necessarily be the goal here. I can confidently say that the moment you can just sit back, relax and ENJOY THE MUSIC, that is when it's Ok to stop. When the emotion of the music starts showing and overriding the reality factor.

[Frodo]

That's what I'm talking about. You buy something as intense as VSL and then you're still wondering if you've hit ITS limit or if IT has hit yours.

One some non-mediocre level, the old adage applies : "It's not the size of the ship, it's the motion of the ocean." This would imply that with things like breath controllers and a greater sensitivity to how real players actually play that plenty enough can be done quite satisfactorily.

But back to the ship analogy-- someone else has asked: "But who'd want to cross the Atlantic in a row boat?"