MACKIE 24 8 paired with a MOTU 24 I|O WHAT NOW?!

[rob.majchrowski]

so i've just recently picked up a MOTU 24 I|O and i currently own a Mackie 24 channel 8 Bus mixer.. i'm looking at a couple different options on what to track to.
first off, i was thinking of getting a powermac G5 and running DP 4.5 (seeing as i own DP (clean) already, i might as well use it and stay in the MAC family). OR! i could have a friend build me a PC specifically for what i need and run Cubase 4 on it. I'm planning on just using the hard drive like someone would use a 24 track tape machine. occasionally i wouldn't mind using a couple of VST's or AU's for a specific sound on a couple tracks during mixdown, but most of the effects/dynamic processing would be done outboard and then the finally LR mix would be sent to a two track tape recorder OR my 896HD to my PowerBook G4 running Logic 8 (dirty). OKAY! so my question is this: IN THIS SITUATION --Would i be better off getting a PC or a MAC (consider the price differences), and how powerful do either of these machines need to be (considering the DSP would take care of most of the processing on the PCI), so that i wont ever have a problem running 24 ins and outs at 24 bit/96K.. by problem i mean SYSTEM OVERLOAD. hope someone can help me out thanks!!!

[James Steele]

I noticed nobody has responded yet. I'm sure you have your reasons, but I know that I sold my Mackie 32 8 (with meter bridge) for about $950 4-5 years ago and never looked back. I've gone to mixing ITB (In The Box) and was glad I kicked the mixing board habit. I'd suggest that you might consider doing the same, unless there's an especially compelling reason to hang on to the Mackie.

[mikehalloran]

If you are going to run a dedicated music computer with MOTU hardware, a Mac G5 is a good way to go and far less of a pain than Windows. There is no OS that will run both Logic 8 and DP 4.5 well so you will need to make up your mind.

The most stable version of DP4 is 4.6.1

Better yet, upgrade DP to 5.1.3 or 6 and run the G5 on Leopard - it will cost you $149. Yea, I know that, for some of us, DP-6 isn't quite ready for prime time but that affects the sequencing side more than the audio - besides, most reports say that it is more stable on a PPC than Intel - I have no problem with it on my Dual 1.8 G5. I will assume that "clean" means a registered copy in your name. Upgrade to Logic Studio 8.0.2 and get a clean copy so that you can get all the additional libraries and applications. If you know an Apple employee, they can get Apple branded software at 50%.

I use DP-5, 6 and Logic Studio. There are some things that Logic just can't do but there is nothing for PC that even approaches its power. I am getting used to DP-6 and, as soon as I upgrade a few 3rd party apps will phase out DP-5.

As far as tracking, you are going to use the direct outs from your Mackie to feed your 24i. Nothing to comment on in that regards.

Learn to mix in the box.

[rob.majchrowski]

just to be clear... i have been mixing ITB for about 5 years now.. i'm getting sick of it. i'm trying to strip down to the basics (mic choice/mic placement/simple eq/simple compression/delay/reverb). i started on 4 tracks and 4 bus mixers recording punk bands, and i wanna get back to that mentality. i'd love to just get a 2 inch to track to, but i just can't afford to deal with keeping up with tape costs (HD space costs nothing ). i've used Nuendo, Audio desk, DP, Logic, and Protools LE. honestly my favorite that froze little to never was Nuendo. i'm not sure if it;s their engine or what.. but it was always very reliable. thats REALLY my question.. which software/os combo will be the most reliable for the least amount of cash (consider i have to get a desktop because of the PCI-X 424 that comes with the MOTU 24 i/o). i really appreciate any and all info from you guys.. any dollar saved provides more money for better mics and eventually better outboard gear.

[James Steele]

Hey... thanks for explaining that. I totally get where you're coming from there. As far as computer choices, not sure what to tell you. I think the recommendation for a used G5 might be good because if you're planning on using relatively few software plug-ins and just using it as a big tape machine then a G5 could work nicely. I cant' really comment on the windows route. You might want to post a question in the MOTU Hardware & Windows forum to ask there as well. Did you get the free Audiodesk software from MOTU when you got your 24 I/O?

[mikehalloran]

If you are going to use it as a big tape machine, DP 4.6.1 on OS 10.3.x is as good as anything. DP 4.5 is unstable by comparison. DP 5.1.3 on Tiger or Leopard, likewise, is very good in that regards.

Nothing wrong with AudioDesk II either. If you got AudioDesk I, you can't use it without an upgrade as it doesn't work in OS X.

True, you will not have to mix "in the box" with this setup. But, as a person who cut his teeth doing multi-channel recording before fader automation was invented, the idea of chasing 24 faders during an unautomated mixdown session leaves me cold. It reminds me of the bad old days.

There is a really cool piece of hardware that isn't made anymore called the CS-32 from JLCooper. It is 32 mini faders on a board smaller than a standard sheet of paper. By default, it assigns a fader to each channel. When you enable fader automation on DP, you have all the advantages of mixing in the box plus the convenience of individual faders. I have seen these on eBay for $100. Although the software is still available for download, the installer doesn't work in OS 10.5. You have to expand the file in an earlier OS and place the three files manually (the files are small enough that anyone who has them expanded can email them). There were three versions: USB, MIDI and Serial. The USB is the only practical one these days. Unfortunately, no one ever developed drivers for Leopard so it works with DP 4 and 5 as long as you are in 10.4.x or earlier (edit: I have solved that and posted the solution here: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 96#p303196 ).

[James Steele]

You know... come to think of it, Mackie made something called the Otto Pilot or something like that which would sort of automate your board. Basically I think you just hooked it up to the inserts and it was a VCA controlled by MIDI for each channel, so you'd set the fader at unity and then mix that way. Hmmmm.... here's one:

http://tinyurl.com/mg9sew

Maybe that's something for you to look into without being too modern?

[rob.majchrowski]

sweetness... thanks guys, this was what i was looking for! one more thing though; do you think a dual processor is necessary? can i get away with a single G5? i
'm looking at a PowerMac G5 1.6Ghz with 4GB of RAM running 10.4.. it's clean with a fresh install. anyone think this might not be more than enough please lemme know. your thoughts are GREATLY appreciated.

[mikehalloran]

Can you get away with a single processor? Yes if you are running Digital Performer and you have the PCIx version of the 424 card (see below). I know this because it runs on slow G4s also. A G4 1.2G Dual processor will run DP - I have seen these as cheap as $250 lately.

With DP, your hardware will limit the number of tracks and plugins that will run at a time. When I bought my 1st generation, G5, I selected the 1.8 Dual based on a reviewer who said he could get 132 tracks with 1 plugin each in DP 4.x with the 1.8 and 150 tracks with the 2.0 Dual. I think that there was 2.5G RAM in both systems - that has an effect, too. At the time, the price difference was $1,000 - $1K for 17 more tracks I will never use? Faggetaboutit. I don't remember how many simultaneous tracks the 1.6 Single could run but it was a lot fewer.

Since used G5s are pretty cheap these days, I would be on the lookout for a dual processor loaded with RAM. They show up on Craigs List all the time. You mentioned that you might want to explore Logic. You will be glad for the extra horsepower if you look at the Apple product.

Your 24i has a PCI-424 card. Which version? Does the PCI connector have one slot (PCI) or two slots (PCIx)? PCIx is backwards compatible; you can install it in any early G5 or even a G4/G3. If it is a PCI, it will work in any G4 but there is only one G5 you can install it in: There are some G5s with PCI slots - these are easily identified by having only 4 slots for RAM (all PCIx duals have 8 RAM slots).

The last three G5s and all Intel towers require the PCIe version. Here are pictures of all three:

http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technot ... patibility

BTW, I just spent a few hours making the JL Cooper CS-32 work under Leopard in DP-5 and DP-6. It turned out to be quite simple once I figured it out - takes a few seconds. I just posted complete instructions here:
http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 96#p303196

[rob.majchrowski]

rad!! it's a 24 IO BTW and it should be PCI-X ...from the pics on MOTU's website is how i'm figuring that. it's on it's way via UPS as we speak. yeah, i saw that the best option would probably be an early 2005 G5.. actually i think it's quite possibly my only real option. but i've seen em with 2GB of RAM and dual processors for about $150-250, which is TOTALLY in the budget. another thing... anyone got any ideas for guitar cab mics.. i've got an E609, a MD421, a CS1000s (seriously, try one out on cabs..they're sick) and obviously sm57's... i'm trying to find something underrated that i can get a pair of. you fine folks have been nothing but helpful and courteous so far!!!

[mikehalloran]

My first choice for great, reasonably priced all around mic is the RODE NT-3. It has a warmer low end than the C-1000S (I own both) and is smoother overall. Also, like the C-1000S, it runs on phantom or an internal 9V battery. I do a lot of location recording and sometimes make use of the battery power recording to my FOSTEX MR-8.

Here is a list of the G5 Macs broken down by PCI, PCIx and PCIe
http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/p ... slots.html

My earlier info was inaccurate - there were few other G5s with PCI slots but all are identifiable by having 4 RAM slots only. PCIx Macs have 8 RAM slots. Your PCIx card is backwards compatible with PCI so any G5 except the PCIe versions will work.

As far as RAM, I have 4.5G in mine. I can't say that I noticed any performance enhancement once I got over 3G but I rarely have more than 40 or 50 tracks running including effects returns etc. Max RAM is 4G in the PCI versions; 8G in the PCIx versions.

Ram is installed in pairs on these machines. You can often find 512K chips really cheap for these. Even still, 2G sets of RAM will set you back only $75 or so at OWC.

My Dual 1.8 G5 is the 1st generation from 2003. It is a great machine but it has an annoying flaw that may make it unsuitable for some. To solve a problem with the original 160G hard drives overheating, Apple lowered the temperature that raises the fan speed. If the ambient temperature of the room hits the mid 80s, these get noisy. They did this with the release of OS 10.3.8 and it only affects the 2003 Duals. If your room is properly air conditioned, this is not an issue. Even though later hard drives run cooler and use less energy, there is no way to tell my machine this and I have never found a system hack to re-set it back.

While I think about it, the variable speed, low energy "green" drives from WD work quite well for both DP and Logic. You can get the 1T version in an OEM box for as little as $89. I like the fact that these run cooler, too. Now if I could tell my machine that the fans don't need to run so fast when the room gets warm...

[heuristic]

Hey guys!

Not to hijack this thread too much, but I am actually looking at the 24io as a mate to my Mackie 24 8 bus... but I am running WinXP 32bit on Intel hardware (Quad core 6600/Asus MoBo) - I am using Cubase 5 (and previously 4) with no issues - I have recorded 8 inbound streams of 24/96 along with 30 MIDI channel streams all at once without more than one bar on my ASIO meter flickering... , so I cannot see that the 24io would be that much more of a hit as far as audio streams go - I am also sick of ITB, which is my motiviation, got the Mackie for a great price and its clean. Seems like there are more vocalists and accoustic players in my life these days too!

I'd be most interested to hear what you end up going for... I am a Mac guy from way back (the 80s) but economies of life forced me over to the PC a while back - I am not sorry though, it has been pretty solid - just stay away from Vista!

If you have the $$$, go Mac, but I wanted to pipe up for Wintel - it is quite viable if the money's tighter.

[BradLyons]

That 24I/O is one great solution! I had one with a 2408mk3 several years ago for 32-channels of recording off of my GL3800 console. At that time, I owned (3) M-Audio Delta1010's and needed a 4th----but there were issues doing that so I had to move on. Those interfaces sounded very good, so I already convinced myself that the 24I/O offering that much I/O on a single PCI card plus the DSP and all the metering was going to be a step backwards----oh but was I surprised, very surprised! I nearly purchased (2) 24I/O's recently for a large concert I was recording, but it turned out that I also had to mix it for live TV---so I stuck with my PTHD system. I've configured sooo many home studios and live church systems with one or more 24I/O's---it's an amazing box that when you think about it, $2500 for 48-inputs direct to the computer? Ha! As to processing power, I was using a Blue and White G3 with a Glyph drive---NO issues. Track count isn't the issue these days, it's processing for plugins.

[James Steele]

another thing... anyone got any ideas for guitar cab mics.. i've got an E609, a MD421, a CS1000s (seriously, try one out on cabs..they're sick) and obviously sm57's...

Well, a real sleeper for me was the Groove Tubes GT-66 tube mic that I got used and is now my favorite guitar cab mic. I don't use it in combination with anything else. It's discontinued. I think Guitar Center rebranded them as Sterling. I found one on auction:

http://tinyurl.com/n5dtfw

Highly recommended!

[magicd]

I got a pair of Cascade FatHead II ribbon mics. Best guitar cab mic I have ever used. If I really want to get fancy I use the ribbon in combination with a condenser mic. Ribbon on the speaker. Condenser about a foot off.

Dave