Moving to DP from Logic... should I do it? (and why?)

[MonoPoly307]

Hi Guys,

I'm a Logic user, who moved to Logic from an 8 year stint using Cubase. I wasn't happy with some layout issues in relation to Cubase (ever tried using it with dual displays?! you can only have one arrange window!!) and some of the general functionality was seeming a bit behind the ball...

Logic has disappointed in some areas too, so while I'm kinda not too committed to any one DAW, I am thinking that DP might be the answer!

I'd love to hear from people who have moved from Logic (or even Cubase)... was it worth the move? What do you get out of DP that Logic/Cubase didn't deliver?

I also have a few questions...
1. Logic has these great channel strip presets, where you can choose by category for specicfic instruments or effect types, and the strip will be configured with a heap of effects as a set. You can also do this with various presets on the Master channel, making getting a nice overall sound quite easy for a rough working master. Does DP do this?

2. Logic - amazingly - doesn't let you choose which MIDI port you are inputting through, so if you want to record two MIDI instruments being played at the same time, you have to separate by channel rather than just saying "this instrument is coming in through MIDI Port A and should control this channel, and this other instrument is coming in via Port D and should control this other channel"...
Does DP just let you choose the in port and the out port for any MIDI track? Simply?

3. What about the included instruments... are they as good as the Logic ones? Are the effects as varied as Logic's?

4. Logic is very good at low-latency for larger virtual instruments like BFD... does DP have very low latency?

5. Can you freeze tracks?

6. How about CPU usage... is DP very hungry, or will it run well on say a 2.4GHz iMac (my current machine!!)

7. Can you have multiple main arrange windows open (for example, one on each screen?)

8. I see that DP has a Melodyne-like editor for vocal or instrumental solo melodies. Cubase has just brought out Vari-audio. Logic has nothing. Is this feature in DP really as good as Melodyne?! It looks to be very well implemented, from what I can see...

9. Anything else that makes it really stand out?! I am impressed by what I see so far!

Thanks guys... hope to be joining you soon from Logic-land if I feel that the move will really be a good one...!

Cheers,
Mike

Logic 8 / Yamaha S90 / Korg Triton Extreme / Roland V-Drums TD12 / other stuff too!

[fai31188]

I bought logic pro last year to try out the VI's, all the integration with apple loops, etc. I had been a DP user since 2000 (2.7 through 5.13). Anyway, I am coming back to DP. I just ordered DP6 this morning.

Although the VI's in Logic are very good, not at the top of the heap for each category, but nonetheless very good, I don't really need VI's at the moment. DP's included VI's are not in the same league IMHO (as of version 5). Things may have changed in DP6 as far as what's included, but, DP does not offer a dedicated tonewheel instrument, clav, ep, etc., although you can purchase the Electric Keys sampled EP's separately, as well as Mach 5, etc.

As for the MIDI implementation in Logic, it is lame beyond belief. So, to answer your second question, the answer is yes. DP allows you to control all your external MIDI instruments by simply assigning the MIDI input port (and channel) as well MIDI outputs. It's simple and elegant. I too was shocked at how poorly Logic handles external MIDI instruments.

Another thing I totally missed in Logic is the inability to have multiple mixes in the same project. There are probably work arounds, but, nothing really useable.

There are fewer effects in DP, but, the quality of the DP effects are as good as the best Logic plugins. I missed the MW Eq. It has no rival in Logic. Also the Preamp in DP is sweet. Nothing like it in logic.

To me, DP is elegant, deep and easy to work in. Logic was a difficult DAW to get around. Whereas things like inserting a few bars in the middle of a sequence was a simple task in DP, in logic, while also simple, required several mouse clicks and lots of squinting (I am getting older). I never appreciated the single arrange window in Logic, and the inability to open more than one MIDI track in the same window for editing purposes. (You can do that in DP).

There are many other features in DP that I missed in logic, and I am happy to be coming back. C'mon MOTU ship that thing!!!!

aL

[MonoPoly307]

I bought logic pro last year to try out the VI's, all the integration with apple loops, etc. I had been a DP user since 2000 (2.7 through 5.13). Anyway, I am coming back to DP. I just ordered DP6 this morning.

Although the VI's in Logic are very good, not at the top of the heap for each category, but nonetheless very good, I don't really need VI's at the moment. DP's included VI's are not in the same league IMHO (as of version 5). Things may have changed in DP6 as far as what's included, but, DP does not offer a dedicated tonewheel instrument, clav, ep, etc., although you can purchase the Electric Keys sampled EP's separately, as well as Mach 5, etc.

As for the MIDI implementation in Logic, it is lame beyond belief. So, to answer your second question, the answer is yes. DP allows you to control all your external MIDI instruments by simply assigning the MIDI input port (and channel) as well MIDI outputs. It's simple and elegant. I too was shocked at how poorly Logic handles external MIDI instruments.

Another thing I totally missed in Logic is the inability to have multiple mixes in the same project. There are probably work arounds, but, nothing really useable.

There are fewer effects in DP, but, the quality of the DP effects are as good as the best Logic plugins. I missed the MW Eq. It has no rival in Logic. Also the Preamp in DP is sweet. Nothing like it in logic.

To me, DP is elegant, deep and easy to work in. Logic was a difficult DAW to get around. Whereas things like inserting a few bars in the middle of a sequence was a simple task in DP, in logic, while also simple, required several mouse clicks and lots of squinting (I am getting older). I never appreciated the single arrange window in Logic, and the inability to open more than one MIDI track in the same window for editing purposes. (You can do that in DP).

There are many other features in DP that I missed in logic, and I am happy to be coming back. C'mon MOTU ship that thing!!!!

aL

Hi Al,

Thanks for the reply!

Glad to hear you agree that Logic really doesn't do well when it comes to external MIDI devices...

I have another question you might be able to help with an ex-Logic user! Does DP (at least Version 5, which you're not waiting for!!) have good handling of mixing strip presets? I do like the fact that with Logic, you can record say a guitar, then choose at the top of the strip the guitar category, and then choose specific strip presets. You might choose "fat spacious distortion", and suddently you'll see four or five effects on the strip that give a great pre-set sound (which you can then mess around with).

I'm wondering how well DP does in this area? I know it has effect presets for specific insert effects, but does it have lots of well-organised strip presets?

Cheers,
Mike

[James Steele]

To be fair, whether we're talking about moving TO DP or moving FROM DP... this should go in the "MOTU Theoretical" forum...

[fai31188]

Mike,

I don't think DP 5 does exactly what Logic does as far as channel strip settings you mention. I've used channel strip settings in Logic, but sparingly, never finding quite what I am looking for. What dp 5 does is allow you to save the settings on each plug in and recall it instantaneously in another project.

What I did in DP is save my mixing console as a template, complete with channel strip plugins. That way, on the next tune, when I am mixing the bass, I am starting from the same basic settings I used in prior tunes and go from there. Same, with Guitars, etc.

aL

[James Steele]

I don't think DP 5 does exactly what Logic does as far as channel strip settings you mention. I've used channel strip settings in Logic, but sparingly, never finding quite what I am looking for. What dp 5 does is allow you to save the settings on each plug in and recall it instantaneously in another project.

Don't forget "clippings." You can drag a series of plugs to a clipping window and then drag that on to a channel strip to recall a certain plug-in combination.

[fai31188]

Ahhhh clippings! Forgot about them... I guess I've been away from DP for too long!!

aL

[monkey man]

I've a very strong feeling that the next phase of feature additions and enhancements for DP will be in the plug-in area, including VIs. There's no match EQ, denoiser or guitar amp sim yet, for example. DP's plug offerings are a mixture of newer and older ones, and the legacy plugs sure could use updating IMHO. MOTU is aware of this, you'd think, and I've had the feeling that it's been working on this aspect of DP for quite some time and therefore expect miracles.

When all's said and done though there's one critical, overriding factor, IMHO: DP is more logical in its approach and implementation than the competition.

[sdfalk]

Why wouldn't you just Keep them both..?

[James Steele]

I have them both. I think what bothers me is we need some sort of decent project translation format that is 100% compatible and reliable so we can move projects back and forth between different DAWs regardless of the stage or production we're in. Why can't we flesh out an arrangement in one DAW, export a project and track and edit audio in another, then export and mix in yet another? Couldn't this capability be one of those "tides that lifts ALL boats" just like MIDI was when it was created?

[Shooshie]

Hi Guys,

I'm a Logic user, who moved to Logic from an 8 year stint using Cubase. I wasn't happy with some layout issues in relation to Cubase (ever tried using it with dual displays?! you can only have one arrange window!!) and some of the general functionality was seeming a bit behind the ball...

DP works great with multiple monitors. For a while, it worked great in Leopard's "Spaces." DP 6 doesn't cooperate with Spaces as well as DP 5.13 did, but hopefully they'll fix that again. (see link to see what I am talking about)

Logic has disappointed in some areas too, so while I'm kinda not too committed to any one DAW, I am thinking that DP might be the answer!

I'd love to hear from people who have moved from Logic (or even Cubase)... was it worth the move? What do you get out of DP that Logic/Cubase didn't deliver?

I also have a few questions...
1. Logic has these great channel strip presets, where you can choose by category for specicfic instruments or effect types, and the strip will be configured with a heap of effects as a set. You can also do this with various presets on the Master channel, making getting a nice overall sound quite easy for a rough working master. Does DP do this?

No, this is not at all the way DP is set up. To me, that feels like an amateurish Garageband-ish way of doing things. In DP, if you have sets of effects that you like, you can save them in Clippings, which acts like a library of pretty much anything you want to put in there. To use it later, just drag it out of Clippings to wherever you want it to go. You can also save templates, or save actual files that you use like stationery.

To switch to DP, you have to commit to its way of doing things for long enough to really learn how they're done. Don't switch to DP if you're looking for a copy of Logic. They are diametrically opposed in just about all their methods and workflows. Naturally, I greatly prefer DP's ways, though I own both and keep Logic at the ready in my Dock. But I'm a dyed-in-the-wool DP user, both professionally and as an enthusiast. (in other words, DP makes me love my job!)

2. Logic - amazingly - doesn't let you choose which MIDI port you are inputting through, so if you want to record two MIDI instruments being played at the same time, you have to separate by channel rather than just saying "this instrument is coming in through MIDI Port A and should control this channel, and this other instrument is coming in via Port D and should control this other channel"...
Does DP just let you choose the in port and the out port for any MIDI track? Simply?

Yes.

3. What about the included instruments... are they as good as the Logic ones? Are the effects as varied as Logic's?

While instrument quality is a matter of opinion, based on familiarity and need, there is no question that Logic has the upper hand in this regard. DP only comes with about 6 or 7 bundled instruments, but they are actually very good. I've heard a lot of people trash them, but from experience I know that those people simply don't know what they're trashing. There's a lot to like in DP's bundled VI's, and some are downright awesome if you have any synth programming experience at all. There is also UVI Workstation, which is basically MachFive2-Lite. But The philosophy in DP has always been "buy the VI's you want, because NO bundled VI's compare with 3rd party ones that have been crafted with great care to deliver just what you're looking for. So, you might say that Logic wins this round against DP, but loses the tournament, since 3rd party VI's are the heavyweights. And then again, DP's bundled VI's are actually pretty wonderful once you sink your teeth into them.

Effects: DP has a lot of very competent plugins that do the jobs they are meant to do. I've mixed albums with predominantly DP plugins. In addition to the standard workhorses, DP also comes with a few VERY FINE plugins which compete with anything out there. Those include the MasterWorks EQ (top-rank British-style EQ), the Masterworks Leveler (Classic LA-2A modeling), and an Impulse Response reverb.

Again, 3rd party plugins rule, though I use the Masterworks EQ and the Leveler right alongside my finest Waves plugins.

4. Logic is very good at low-latency for larger virtual instruments like BFD... does DP have very low latency?

Not as low as Logic's, perhaps, but that depends on some things. First of all, latency in DP 6 was probably about half that of DP 5.13, so they've done something to speed it up fairly recently. 2nd, you can use Direct Hardware Playthrough to bypass effects and hear your external audio with zero latency. With VI's, that's another thing altogether, so it's going to depend on how many instruments you're attempting to track at once, and whether you're trying to run them through big plugins. Ultimately, Apple and eMagic (Logic's authors) seem to have the inside track on latency. Nobody in the Native DAW market can compete with Logic in terms of latency, but when you learn how to get around it, that becomes a non-issue.

5. Can you freeze tracks?

yes. Or you can bounce them to disk and skip the freeze step.

6. How about CPU usage... is DP very hungry, or will it run well on say a 2.4GHz iMac (my current machine!!)

Is that an Intel iMac? If so, you should be in good shape. DP really runs better on an Intel machine than the PowerPC machines.

7. Can you have multiple main arrange windows open (for example, one on each screen?)

Not sure what you mean. We have different windows than Logic. You can have any number of windows open, but in most cases, only one of each. You can put them on separate screens. You can have a window open for each MIDI track, or you can have all MIDI tracks open in the same window, and show the desired tracks by selecting them from the index in the margins. This is my preferred way of working. We also have a Sequence Editor (much like the arrange window you're probably referring to) and the Tracks Overview Window, which is unique to DP and is very powerful. There's no shortage of great ways of working in DP.

8. I see that DP has a Melodyne-like editor for vocal or instrumental solo melodies. Cubase has just brought out Vari-audio. Logic has nothing. Is this feature in DP really as good as Melodyne?! It looks to be very well implemented, from what I can see...

This works extremely well, and is extremely intuitive.

9. Anything else that makes it really stand out?! I am impressed by what I see so far!

There are tons of things that stand out in DP. I'm not going to try to list them, but this is one of the best DAWs on the planet. It's also the oldest commercial DAW for the Mac which is still being developed.

Thanks guys... hope to be joining you soon from Logic-land if I feel that the move will really be a good one...!

It is what you make of it. Don't get DP if you want something that works like Logic. If you want something that is a little more straightforward, fewer windows, dialogs, and menus, excellent MIDI editing capabilities, easy audio editing, that doesn't lock you into a "regions-based" way of working in MIDI, you may like DP. It's hard to say what you will or won't like. Most DP users are loyal and would not switch if you paid them. On the other hand, MOTU is not the size of Apple, so bugs usually take longer to get fixed,. but they get around to them.

I love DP, but your first experiences with it will almost surely be frustrating because of the learning curve. You may experience crashes at first, but that is often a configuration issue. DP 6.02 has been very stable for me. Good luck in your decision,

Shooshie

[MonoPoly307]

Hi Guys,

I'm a Logic user, who moved to Logic from an 8 year stint using Cubase. I wasn't happy with some layout issues in relation to Cubase (ever tried using it with dual displays?! you can only have one arrange window!!) and some of the general functionality was seeming a bit behind the ball...

DP works great with multiple monitors. For a while, it worked great in Leopard's "Spaces." DP 6 doesn't cooperate with Spaces as well as DP 5.13 did, but hopefully they'll fix that again. (see link to see what I am talking about)

Logic has disappointed in some areas too, so while I'm kinda not too committed to any one DAW, I am thinking that DP might be the answer!

I'd love to hear from people who have moved from Logic (or even Cubase)... was it worth the move? What do you get out of DP that Logic/Cubase didn't deliver?

I also have a few questions...
1. Logic has these great channel strip presets, where you can choose by category for specicfic instruments or effect types, and the strip will be configured with a heap of effects as a set. You can also do this with various presets on the Master channel, making getting a nice overall sound quite easy for a rough working master. Does DP do this?

No, this is not at all the way DP is set up. To me, that feels like an amateurish Garageband-ish way of doing things. In DP, if you have sets of effects that you like, you can save them in Clippings, which acts like a library of pretty much anything you want to put in there. To use it later, just drag it out of Clippings to wherever you want it to go. You can also save templates, or save actual files that you use like stationery.

To switch to DP, you have to commit to its way of doing things for long enough to really learn how they're done. Don't switch to DP if you're looking for a copy of Logic. They are diametrically opposed in just about all their methods and workflows. Naturally, I greatly prefer DP's ways, though I own both and keep Logic at the ready in my Dock. But I'm a dyed-in-the-wool DP user, both professionally and as an enthusiast. (in other words, DP makes me love my job!)

2. Logic - amazingly - doesn't let you choose which MIDI port you are inputting through, so if you want to record two MIDI instruments being played at the same time, you have to separate by channel rather than just saying "this instrument is coming in through MIDI Port A and should control this channel, and this other instrument is coming in via Port D and should control this other channel"...
Does DP just let you choose the in port and the out port for any MIDI track? Simply?

Yes.

3. What about the included instruments... are they as good as the Logic ones? Are the effects as varied as Logic's?

While instrument quality is a matter of opinion, based on familiarity and need, there is no question that Logic has the upper hand in this regard. DP only comes with about 6 or 7 bundled instruments, but they are actually very good. I've heard a lot of people trash them, but from experience I know that those people simply don't know what they're trashing. There's a lot to like in DP's bundled VI's, and some are downright awesome if you have any synth programming experience at all. There is also UVI Workstation, which is basically MachFive2-Lite. But The philosophy in DP has always been "buy the VI's you want, because NO bundled VI's compare with 3rd party ones that have been crafted with great care to deliver just what you're looking for. So, you might say that Logic wins this round against DP, but loses the tournament, since 3rd party VI's are the heavyweights. And then again, DP's bundled VI's are actually pretty wonderful once you sink your teeth into them.

Effects: DP has a lot of very competent plugins that do the jobs they are meant to do. I've mixed albums with predominantly DP plugins. In addition to the standard workhorses, DP also comes with a few VERY FINE plugins which compete with anything out there. Those include the MasterWorks EQ (top-rank British-style EQ), the Masterworks Leveler (Classic LA-2A modeling), and an Impulse Response reverb.

Again, 3rd party plugins rule, though I use the Masterworks EQ and the Leveler right alongside my finest Waves plugins.

4. Logic is very good at low-latency for larger virtual instruments like BFD... does DP have very low latency?

Not as low as Logic's, perhaps, but that depends on some things. First of all, latency in DP 6 was probably about half that of DP 5.13, so they've done something to speed it up fairly recently. 2nd, you can use Direct Hardware Playthrough to bypass effects and hear your external audio with zero latency. With VI's, that's another thing altogether, so it's going to depend on how many instruments you're attempting to track at once, and whether you're trying to run them through big plugins. Ultimately, Apple and eMagic (Logic's authors) seem to have the inside track on latency. Nobody in the Native DAW market can compete with Logic in terms of latency, but when you learn how to get around it, that becomes a non-issue.

5. Can you freeze tracks?

yes. Or you can bounce them to disk and skip the freeze step.

6. How about CPU usage... is DP very hungry, or will it run well on say a 2.4GHz iMac (my current machine!!)

Is that an Intel iMac? If so, you should be in good shape. DP really runs better on an Intel machine than the PowerPC machines.

7. Can you have multiple main arrange windows open (for example, one on each screen?)

Not sure what you mean. We have different windows than Logic. You can have any number of windows open, but in most cases, only one of each. You can put them on separate screens. You can have a window open for each MIDI track, or you can have all MIDI tracks open in the same window, and show the desired tracks by selecting them from the index in the margins. This is my preferred way of working. We also have a Sequence Editor (much like the arrange window you're probably referring to) and the Tracks Overview Window, which is unique to DP and is very powerful. There's no shortage of great ways of working in DP.

8. I see that DP has a Melodyne-like editor for vocal or instrumental solo melodies. Cubase has just brought out Vari-audio. Logic has nothing. Is this feature in DP really as good as Melodyne?! It looks to be very well implemented, from what I can see...

This works extremely well, and is extremely intuitive.

9. Anything else that makes it really stand out?! I am impressed by what I see so far!

There are tons of things that stand out in DP. I'm not going to try to list them, but this is one of the best DAWs on the planet. It's also the oldest commercial DAW for the Mac which is still being developed.

Thanks guys... hope to be joining you soon from Logic-land if I feel that the move will really be a good one...!

It is what you make of it. Don't get DP if you want something that works like Logic. If you want something that is a little more straightforward, fewer windows, dialogs, and menus, excellent MIDI editing capabilities, easy audio editing, that doesn't lock you into a "regions-based" way of working in MIDI, you may like DP. It's hard to say what you will or won't like. Most DP users are loyal and would not switch if you paid them. On the other hand, MOTU is not the size of Apple, so bugs usually take longer to get fixed,. but they get around to them.

I love DP, but your first experiences with it will almost surely be frustrating because of the learning curve. You may experience crashes at first, but that is often a configuration issue. DP 6.02 has been very stable for me. Good luck in your decision,

Shooshie

'
Hey Shooshie,

Great and detailled reply - thanks for putting the time into this!

Cheers
Mike

[sdfalk]

I have them both. I think what bothers me is we need some sort of decent project translation format that is 100% compatible and reliable so we can move projects back and forth between different DAWs regardless of the stage or production we're in. Why can't we flesh out an arrangement in one DAW, export a project and track and edit audio in another, then export and mix in yet another? Couldn't this capability be one of those "tides that lifts ALL boats" just like MIDI was when it was created?

Amen to that..OMF and AAF just don't cut it.

[daniel.sneed]

Don't forget "clippings." You can drag a series of plugs to a clipping window and then drag that on to a channel strip to recall a certain plug-in combination.

Yes clipping is one of the most handy DP features.
Will do anything you'll need in matter of *I may use this latter*, thru some easy drag and drop.
Only one exception I've seen yet : complete Proverb setup including IR selection.

[MonoPoly307]

Hi Guys...

Just looked at the DP site and found the name of the window I was asking about... it's the "Consolidated Window"... the main window that arranging happens in. I'm wondering if you can open MORE THAN ONE of these windows when you are running DP?

In other words, could I have one arrange window on my main monitor and another on my second monitor, which might show a different part of the song or might show the tracks at a different zoom level?

The reason I ask is that Cubase doesn't let you have two such windows, sure you can have a mixer in one screen and an arrange window in the other, but not two full arrange windows.

Logic on the other hand lets you have two arrange windows, one in each screen, which means you can have different parts of the song open or you could have a really large horizontal zoom on one screen for detailed editing and a very shrunken version on the other so you could always easily see which tracks or events you were working on.

If DP does have this, I might just make the move!

Last question... is there anywhere I can download a DP6 manual from on the web? MOTU site seems to need you to have registered a copy of DP6. But I always read manuals before I buy software (just so there are no nasty surprises in the way things are done!) so it would be great if someone can point me to a link...

Answers to these two questions will be greatly appreciated, and I might soon join the land of DP users!!

Cheers
Mike