Screencast of Composing with DP and Bidule

[jroadrage]

Cool... I duplicated the MIDI track and sent one to AD hosted with DP and one hosted in Bidule and then adjusted the Time Shift on the MIDI track going to Bidule until the flamming was mostly gone. That ended up being 65 MIDI ticks (I'm using 480 ppq and my current tempo was 80bpm). Any way, that's definitely a constant value that should be the same for all MIDI tracks targeting a Bidule-hosted VI.

Of course, there's the whole sticky issue of what happens with a ritardando or accelerando... or maybe not come to think of it. If the change in tempo is handled by the conductor track and the MIDI track routed to Bidule is following that conductor track, then the constant offset should be fine???

I have to run time shift plugs on a ton of my tracks mainly for VE2 standalone, and then reassign all of them periodically (hasn't this bug been around for years?) All of mine are set in to absolute time (.13 seconds with 1024 latency) instead of ticks so they're not tethered to tempo changes.

When I first got Bidule I opened identical patches in VE standalone and VE as an AU inside of Bidule and the difference was very slight with identical latency settings in VE2, Bidule and Soundflower.

[James Steele]

I have to run time shift plugs on a ton of my tracks mainly for VE2 standalone, and then reassign all of them periodically (hasn't this bug been around for years?) All of mine are set in to absolute time (.13 seconds with 1024 latency) instead of ticks so they're not tethered to tempo changes.

What I wonder though is don't MIDI events have to be "quantized" to whatever PPQ resolution you've setup DP for? Perhaps this is different with VIs, but if you choose amount in absolute time, won't DP have to round it to the nearest MIDI tick? I know I tried to enter 1024 in the Time Shift plug using Samples as units, and then if I clicked through other units and came back to samples it changed to 1047.

[c0mp0ser]

Hmm... I wonder, can you use Time Shift to shift the MIDI track a set "time" amount, instead of a "tick" amount? Cause then it wouldn't matter what the tempo is or if there were accel or rit...

I've never heard of Time Shift, i've neve actually used a plugin on a MIDI channel before actually! This is cool.... I'm messing with it now as I type this....

Okay.. cool. YOu can shift it by time instead of ticks. I've found that setting Time shift to shift earlier by 0:00.04 seconds does the trick for buffer 512. Yeah, that makes sense, it's about a 4ms latency. 1024 may be 6ms... but just a guess.

[c0mp0ser]

oops.. i just saw you're already talking about that.

[Tim]

Cool... I duplicated the MIDI track and sent one to AD hosted with DP and one hosted in Bidule and then adjusted the Time Shift on the MIDI track going to Bidule until the flamming was mostly gone. That ended up being 65 MIDI ticks (I'm using 480 ppq and my current tempo was 80bpm). Any way, that's definitely a constant value that should be the same for all MIDI tracks targeting a Bidule-hosted VI.

That's around a tenth of a second, so if you shift in real time (time, frames, or samples) it should be right in any tempo.
A Time Shift MIDI track plug-in is handy for this, as it leaves the beat/tick values as normal which makes for easier editing, and the events follow tempo changes more accurately.

[Tim]

oops.. i just saw you're already talking about that.

[Gabe S.]

Hey guys.

Really really great thread you guys got going here. Thanks Mike for the videos. And Cinesamples is great too! I love those sounds.

Here's my two cents about the recent posts regarding latency compensation in the thread:

Don't drive yourself too nuts trying to iron out the latency 100%----at least in a template. The problems get more complicated when using outside sources like Bidule and outside pcs because of DSP plugin compensation inside DP. Once you start using plugins in your project and DP starts auto-compensating for the plugins that all induce differing amounts of delay, DP can't compensate for the latency of external audio compared to the internal audio because it has no idea what the external latency is. So, even after trying to come up with a constant number, you'll still end up having to massage again. And then, of course you change tempo and it gets even messier. (I would hate to change the settings on 200 Time Shift instances across my template.)

So, the bottom line is that it takes a little massage on each project. You know what I do sometimes.......I use the plugin "Buffy" to delay audio from some of the internal sources because the sounds from outside the Mac are the main sounds. But, that ends up changing from tempo to tempo too.

Working with external audio has never been perfect and will probably never be perfect.....hehe.....you just get used to it after awhile. Mike said it right when he mentioned that he just plays a little before the beat. I know it sounds weird but you just start getting used to it.

Mike, in your video, I noticed you're using the Virtual MIDI ports in Bidule vs. the ReWire ports. I asked the Plogue guys about the difference on their forum, and they had an interesting response. Check it out: http://www.plogue.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3961 Anyway, your video inspired me to try Bidule and I'm really excited about the prospects so far. So, thanks for that!

Cheers.
-gabe

[James Steele]

Don't drive yourself too nuts trying to iron out the latency 100%----at least in a template. The problems get more complicated when using outside sources like Bidule and outside pcs because of DSP plugin compensation inside DP.

Nope... wouldn't drive myself nuts, but even I can tell when a drum part routed to Addictive Drums in Bidule sounds AWFUL in terms of timing.

[Gabe S.]

haha yes, you should always adjust something when it sounds awful!

-g

[James Steele]

Well, I *am * confused, because certainly when playing a MIDI keyboard part... routed to a VI in Bidule there is very little latency I can hear. What's confusing is that somehow when I routed a very quantized MIDI drum track that sounded fine when playing Addictive Drums as a plug-in within DP6.02 to an instance of Addictive Drums running within Bidule, I had a VERY large lag time. The audio from AD hosted in Bidule was VERY late.... like not even flamming late but about 65 ticks off.

This leads me to wonder if I'm doing something wrong here. I don't remember this sort of latency when using VI's in standalone mode and routing the audio with Soundflower. I was able to have that work without running the ReWire installer that MLC posted the link for. I only installed that recently before installing Bidule.

In a way, my adventures with this lead me to consider that for someone like myself who doesn't use a lot of VIs, this is probably not something I need to worry about and is really more the province of the heavyweight composers here doing orchestral mockups where your VIs and complex libraries place far more demands on a computer than guys like me doing guitar-oriented rock with a few VIs thrown in here and there for spice.

[KEVORKIAN]

It's funny, James... I just got done creating a Bidule layout with 2 instances of Superior Drummer and an Instance of Addictive Drums and went through your exact experience and then saw your post last night. Then today after more experimentation I reached a similar conclusion about the usefulness of Bidule for Rock music purposes. The only difference is that I didn't experience quite the same degree of flamming that you describe.

I was/am still intrigued by the ability to host the drum VIs in Bidule because it would function like a V-Rack that I could easily bring to Ableton Live, Logic etc... I'll keep trying.

[pencilina]

Just a though about MIDI latency... did anyone try the messing with the buffer setting in bidule's DSP preferences?

[KEVORKIAN]

Just a though about MIDI latency... did anyone try the messing with the buffer setting in bidule's DSP preferences?

Yes I did... It's set to 256 now but I'll experiment with setting it lower.

[Gabe S.]

In a way, my adventures with this lead me to consider that for someone like myself who doesn't use a lot of VIs, this is probably not something I need to worry about and is really more the province of the heavyweight composers here doing orchestral mockups where your VIs and complex libraries place far more demands on a computer than guys like me doing guitar-oriented rock with a few VIs thrown in here and there for spice.

In my experience, I would say, only go out of DP if you absolutely have to. The most common reasons:

-need more RAM access (use something like Bidule or external computer)
-maxing out CPU (need more computers)
-you can't afford to wait for large template sessions to load between projects because of really tight deadlines (use something like Bidule or external computer)
-need access to apps or plugins that don't work in DP (ie. VST)
-needs access to apps or plugins that don't work on Mac (ie. Giga)
-need a platform that will always work and is immune to compatibility issues regardless of how you upgrade your DAW and plugins. For example, in the last 5 years, I've gone through 3 Macs, 2 main OS versions plus lots of OS updates, endless versions of DP, DSP plugins from Waves, Spectra and others. However, I've NEVER EVER EVER touched my Giga pc in 5 years-----EVER----in any way. And the same goes for my VSTack pc. All I do is add sounds to them and pray they don't break. And now that Giga is dead, I pray even harder. Heck, I'm still on 10.4.11 and DP5.13 on my Mac because I'm scared of what I have to face with Leopard and DP6. I've been trying with DP6 with limited success, as is documented in another thread ( http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... =1&t=34410 ). At this point I think I'm just going to skip Leopard and go straight to Snow Leopard someday in the distant future.
-you enjoy self torture. Being your own multi-OS IT guy excites you; especially having to figure out pc/Giga problems!

The fact is in 2009, Macs are MASSIVELY powerful, if you can afford a current computer. In most cases, I'd say that a single computer and DAW can handle just about any music writing situation for rock, pop, jazz, R&B, general synth/sample based drama, anything live recorded that needs to be mixed and even most basic orchestral mockup situations. It's the small % of people that have the massive mockups and every commercial orchestral release, plus private sampling sessions and work on nasty deadlines that require reaching beyond the DAW. The fact is that DP is REALLY powerful and capable.

Here's my advice----I'd say stay inside your DAW as much as you can. Then once you have to venture out of DP, EMBRACE IT FULLY. Don't half-a$$ your external setup whatever it is, because you'll suffer and then it will be way worse than if you spent the time making a nice way of working with external stuff.

Look at Mike's videos------everyone is amazed by his templates and how fast it allows him to work. That's because he spent a LOT of time setting it up in a way that works for HIM. (And don't forget he's a fantastic keyboard player with I'm sure lots of theory under his belt.) I've made templates like that too; and mine work well for me. And now because of Bidule, I'm in the middle of doing it again. And when Kontakt 3.5 comes out that can supposedly access a TON of RAM, then all of us with templates will explore redoing them again......and then when LA Scoring Strings (LASS) comes out, we'll all be doing it AGAIN. I know beta-testers of LASS (I don't test it) that have completely redone their templates because of it.....it's endless.

Anyway, there's my humble two cents.

Thanks again to Mike for starting all these conversations.

Cheers.
-gabe

[MIDI Life Crisis]

In my experience, I would say, only go out of DP if you absolutely have to. The most common reasons:...

Great post, thanks. If I might add one thing? If you are working in multiple programs like DP and Finale or Sibelius on the same project, having something like Bidule serving both can be useful in maintaining a consistent library of sound without a lot of hassle in loading duplicate libraries.

Mike M