Regarding the LA2A Leveler

[Shooshie]

I've been observing the LA2A Leveler thread with great interest, even though I haven't been using the plugin. But as a member of this forum, I can see that it's very important that we reach some sort of consensus on this and start dealing with what we've got. There are only two possibilities: MOTU will either modify it to make the "warmup" period more predictable and controllable, or they won't. My guess is that they probably won't. But you never know, so I suggest we reach some sort of consensus here on what would be the MOST acceptable way to modify it, and then let's speak as one voice to MOTU, who may then hear us and respond.

I think that a button that toggles on a "look-behind" mode might be the best idea, or as someone else recommended (was it Tim?), a hidden automation that tracks its changes so that skipping around to edit doesn't completely change what we hear. Let's face it, aleatoric principles are interesting in experimental music, but not so much in engineering, and not at all when engineering for a client who expects their changes to sound that way on the CD. So, either a look-behind or a hidden automation control. Of course it would need to be switchable with a toggled off/on.

That's perhaps how we should approach MOTU with our suggestions.

Meanwhile, we must deal with the LA2A as-is. The jokes are already getting tired, and the rants are already getting REALLY annoying. I'm going to suggest that rants get moved to the Rants Forum. We've got to understand that these rants are not going to stop. EVERY person who gets frustrated with this thing is going to come to the forum to blow off steam. Well, we've already heard about a hundred people blowing off steam. At least some have the courtesy to frame it in humor, but you know? We've already heard all the jokes. "A Waves Maximizer and a MOTU LA2A both walk into a bar and order drinks. Almost immediately, the Maximizer starts shouting. The LA2A asks 'why so loud?' The Maximizer says 'I already looked ahead and I can see we're both going to be plastered! So why aren't YOU shouting?' The LA2A stares quietly into his beer for a moment, then replies 'I'm thinking about my date last night with that cute reverb from Audio Ease. I just figured out what she meant when she asked if I'd like to hear myself in her bedroom impulse response. I told her maybe after a rewind and kissed her goodnight at the double-barline.' The Maximizer shouted 'DANG! That's not SLOW, that's STUPID!'"

Ok, see what I mean? They just aren't funny anymore.

So this gets us down to what I'm really writing about. (Like the LA2A, I'm a little slow to warm up.) Since we've got to deal with this, we need to come up with some positive responses. There have been several people who have waxed ecstatic about the LA2A, so how did they use it? What can we recommend as a consistent method for using this plugin? Rants go to the rant forum. But actual pleas for help deserve real responses that show how to get the most out of it. Personally, I'm thinking "don't install it until the end of your mixing. Then listen all the way through and adjust for what you're hearing via stem automation. How, then, do we predict what it's going to do in a bounce? If we bounce to disk, vs. record to a final two-track, will they sound the same? Which would be the preferred method?

See what I mean? It's time to come up with reasoned responses, feeding off of Magic Dave's input and our own collective experience. So how about it? Can we make this a "Tips Sheet" thread, and collectively come up with a half-dozen or so tips for the Tips Sheet? Things that give people some real idea about how this is to be used, and what NOT to expect from it?

I hereby declare this a NO RANT thread. Any and all rants will be deleted (or moved to the other thread). This is for considered responses only.

[cricket...cricket... cricket...] Ok, maybe itty-bitty rants. But nothing that denounces MOTU's intentions for creating this Ultra-Randomizer Leveler.

Shooshie

[Mr_Clifford]

In Magic Dave's very good, detailed explanation he pointed out that, since the T4 cell is continually adjusting to the input, it's inherently 'unstable' - but to the people that like it, that's the charm of the compressor. So a 'stable' version wouldn't be a true emulation of the original. MOTU promised that, and that's what they delivered with DP6.

Possibly the problem is not the MW Leveller so much, but more so that DP doesn't come with a good, predictable, 'normal', single band compressor. The dynamics plug-in is old, limited, and really not up to modern DAW compressors, and the MW compressor is a multi-band. Which leaves the MW leveller as the only 'high-end' compression option within the bundled plugs. And it's obviously not a go-to-for-everything plug-in but more a boutique with a few quirks. Most of us already had an arsenal of 3rd party compressors we were using with DP5 so there really shouldn't be too much of a problem choosing an alternative. To anyone that only has the bundled plug-ins, I'd suggest going to the Stillwell site and purchasing a couple of their, incredibly good value, plug ins.

[kassonica]

First, GREAT thread.

2nd I've had very good results with the MW Leveller so far because I use it sparingly. Only a couple of Db's of gain reduction.

I use it more for character than for compression or limiting.

I can imagine running into problems if you were running say 10-15 gain reduction (which is easy to do as it's so transparent) and then there is a minute of silence and it resets itself and bang the volume increases while the cell warms up again.

I personally love the random nature of this plugin in this oh so predictable digital world and i think if we embrace the MW Leveller's nature, we will get the best results out of this gem of plugin.

[Phil O]

Possibly the problem is not the MW Leveller so much, but more so that DP doesn't come with a good, predictable, 'normal', single band compressor.

Good point. Perhaps something like the Waves C1? Or are you talking hardware emulation? UREI 1176....oooooh! That would be nice.

But on the other hand, for short bucks Stillwell has some good stuff. I'll be ordering a couple of plugs from them soon.

As far as MW Leveler suggestions is concerned, mine would be an on-off switch for the memory bits. It would satisfy people like me (who like the emulation) and would satisfy those who like the reproducibility of other emulations.

Phil

[Shooshie]

Any suggestions for ways to use it, Phil? I mean, you have some experience with it. Any successes at all? Or is it just Plugina-non-grata at this point?

[Armageddon]

I don't think anyone answered my question from that other post -- does UA's new hardware/software emulations of the LA-2A behave in a similarly unpredictable manner? Or did they figure a way to incorporation modern predictability into it? What I'm saying is, you can have both, and the fact that MOTU went completely authentic with the emulation shouldn't be derided ... just as long as they figure out a way to make it useful for people who aren't going to be charmed by the authenticity.

By the way, if we're posting alternatives, PSP's Mixpressor does a fantastic and affordable emulation of the LA-2A, minus the quirks, plus Auto-Gain.

[Phil O]

Any suggestions for ways to use it, Phil? I mean, you have some experience with it. Any successes at all? Or is it just Plugina-non-grata at this point?

I'm using it as intended, as an emulation of the LA2A. It seems to work pretty much like the hardware unit. I don't have one now to compare it to so I can't do a side by side comparison, but I'm getting great results. I disagree with armageddon about the quality of DP plugs. I'm very happy with the MW stuff. I have a UAD-1 and a UAD-2 card, and while the MOTU LA2A and the UAD LA2A do have slightly different characters, I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just different. I also think the MW EQ is great for some stuff.

Although I hardly ever do things exactly the same way twice, I would say that my strategy for vocals is usually as follows:

1. For large variations in volume I'll use an automated fader or trim.
2. To tame peaks (just the peaks) I'll use a fast compressor like an 1176. Usually at this stage, the compressor kicks in only a few times during the track. I've just purchased the Stillwell Rocket and I'm trying it out for this as well.
3. For overall gentle compression I'll use MOTU's or UAD's LA2A plug. Or sometimes I'll go with some outboard gear that I designed back in college.
I worked on a female vocal today that I compressed the crap out of. Used the MW leveler. I gotta say it came out great. She wanted that "I'm singing two inches from your face" sound and we got it, and with no evident pumping.

Nothing is carved in stone, but that's sort of how I approach it.

Phil

[Shooshie]

I don't think anyone answered my question from that other post -- does UA's new hardware/software emulations of the LA-2A behave in a similarly unpredictable manner? Or did they figure a way to incorporation modern predictability into it? What I'm saying is, you can have both, and the fact that MOTU went completely authentic with the emulation shouldn't be derided ... just as long as they figure out a way to make it useful for people who aren't going to be charmed by the authenticity.

By the way, if we're posting alternatives, PSP's Mixpressor does a fantastic and affordable emulation of the LA-2A, minus the quirks, plus Auto-Gain.

Thanks, but what I'd really like to see are methods for using the one we have. The problem, you see, is that every DP user from the North Pole to the South Pole is at some point going to drop into this forum and scream in all caps "THIS LA2A LEVELER IS CRAZY. IT NEVER DOES THINGS THE SAME WAY TWICE!" and so on and so on. This is going to be one of those topics that comes up as often as the View Filter (My data all just disappeared! It was there yesterday, and it's gone today! But it still plays! What's going on????), or the VI implementation (Why can't I record MIDI and output audio from my VI track like Logic does?), and several other "standards." I haven't the faintest idea what to tell them. The answer is NOT "use a UAD version," or "it's a piece of crap, just use Waves," or anything of the kind. The answer is politely to suggest methods of using THIS one. DP's version. It's not a piece of crap; it has a place. It's the only one that works the way it does, and that's bound to lead to some unique mixes that people actually like.

So, the point of this thread is to try to come up with real suggestions. There's already another thread for telling us how bad it is, or telling us not to use it, or telling us what other levelers are out there that we can use. So, with all due respects, please, let's use this thread for actual solutions. Real suggestions on how to use THIS LA2A leveler.

I don't mean to be curmudgeonly, but we've got a real problem on our hands until we come up with some answers. These threads will not stop until we come up with some suggestions to which people respond with "oh, cool. I'll try that." This is the primary forum for one of the major DAWs, whose place in pro-audio history is unique in itself. DP has been involved in productions of the largest movie projects out there, including Titanic, Lord of the Rings, and countless others. It's not a piece of crap, but to read the threads in this forum -- its primary news and help outlet to the entire world -- you'd think DP was on its last legs; a has-been. Folks, we write our own history. If you want DP to drop off the face of the earth, just keep up the negativity that we've been seeing in this forum for the past year or so. If you'd like for people to know about the absolute greatness behind this application, then you're going to have to find ways to talk about it without sounding like any other choice would be better.

I KNOW it's difficult to report bugs to MOTU. We all KNOW that this long rewrite into Cocoa for 32-bit compatibility has been riddled with errors. Other DAWs have had problems, too, but some have 10 times the budget and manpower. It's going to take MOTU a little longer than it takes Apple to achieve stability. Either you deal with it or you make it worse by lowering their bottom line. You lower their bottom line by scaring away customers. ("Even the people at MOTUNation say DP is a piece of crap. Just use Logic instead...")

My uncle used to say "you can say anything you want about someone to their face; it's just a matter of how you put it." Everyone loved him, and he was famous in his field as one of the greatest authorities on cattle in the USA. It's possible to use that advice when talking about MOTU and DP. The truth is that DP is an amazingly good app. It was designed for MUSICIANS first, not engineers. But it gives everyone the chance to engineer their own projects, and you can produce projects of equal quality to those produced on any other DAW. The negativity I've been reading is mind-blowing. I keep wondering "what have these people been smoking?"

Again, I apologize for my curmudgeonly attitude here. It's not my normal way, though I've alienated people with it before, and I'm sure I will again. I'm just another member here like anyone else, but it's time to put down a foot and say "stop." Now. We need solutions. The problem isn't the way MOTU designed this plugin. The problem is that we are not accustomed to using something that functions this way. We can start with the fact that it's not your typical leveler. It doesn't work like other levelers. You don't just slap it on, drag down the sliders to your standard settings, and close it. So, what DO we use it for? HOW do we use it? Where are those answers? Who will be brave enough to post that they actually have found it useful for certain kinds of projects?

There are several threads available for trashing the LA2A Leveler. This thread is for putting our collective wits together to find some answers for it. I thank in advance anyone who can help us do that, because we're going to need it in the months ahead. You'll see.

Shooshie

[Shooshie]

I'm using it as intended, as an emulation of the LA2A. It seems to work pretty much like the hardware unit. I don't have one now to compare it to so I can't do a side by side comparison, but I'm getting great results. I disagree with armageddon about the quality of DP plugs. I'm very happy with the MW stuff. I have a UAD-1 and a UAD-2 card, and while the MOTU LA2A and the UAD LA2A do have slightly different characters, I wouldn't say one is better than the other, just different. I also think the MW EQ is great for some stuff.

Although I hardly ever do things exactly the same way twice, I would say that my strategy for vocals is usually as follows:

1. For large variations in volume I'll use an automated fader or trim.
2. To tame peaks (just the peaks) I'll use a fast compressor like an 1176. Usually at this stage, the compressor kicks in only a few times during the track. I've just purchased the Stillwell Rocket and I'm trying it out for this as well.
3. For overall gentle compression I'll use MOTU's or UAD's LA2A plug. Or sometimes I'll go with some outboard gear that I designed back in college.
I worked on a female vocal today that I compressed the crap out of. Used the MW leveler. I gotta say it came out great. She wanted that "I'm singing two inches from your face" sound and we got it, and with no evident pumping.

Nothing is carved in stone, but that's sort of how I approach it.

Phil

Thank you, thank you, thank you, Phil!

Assuming this thread fills up with ideas, I'm going to glean the most easily comprehended and useful of them and put them in the Tips Sheet.


Shooshie

[bootsncats]

I use the La2A (la-TOO-ahh) as an effect.

1. It creates an edgy feel to the mix that adds an organic element because of its inherent instablility. I has basic low level compression uses but I have another tool for that. It finds its place in my kit as a gritty warmth effect.

2. I love pushing this one to its limits. True, it doesn't do the same thing twice, but thats what is interesting about it. or hitting drums with it maxed out

woah, I just got really tired

[toodamnhip]

I think we need a "one time run through" function where the LA 2-a samples the warm up of a song on first play through, and sync that to time code which would allow any section to be handled consistently as if the LA 2 A passed through the whole tune warming up.

You can add to that "multiplies" such as, LA 2a times 2, 3, 4, 5 etc so that it's as if the machine has been on for hrs ...

I really understand the difficulty of a guy looping through a chorus to get a mix and then rewinding to the start and suddenly , everything sounds different...I don;t know how guys with with real LA 2a's worked before, maybe they went through this difficulty where they looped a section and then had the unit sound different at the beginning...or maybe they had that "one magic pass" where the unit treated a vocal perfect...but in today's technological world...I think we can have the best of both worlds...let the damn machine warm up, map that warm up, put the option of multipliers by numbers or time such as 2-3-4-5-6 or," LA 2a on for one hour"...and map all of that to time code so that it is replicatable...lets have our LA 2a cake and eat it too...

[Shooshie]

I think we need a "one time run through" function where the LA 2-a samples the warm up of a song on first play through, and sync that to time code which would allow any section to be handled consistently as if the LA 2 A passed through the whole tune warming up.

You can add to that "multiplies" such as, LA 2a times 2, 3, 4, 5 etc so that it's as if the machine has been on for hrs ...

I really understand the difficulty of a guy looping through a chorus to get a mix and then rewinding to the start and suddenly , everything sounds different...I don;t know how guys with with real LA 2a's worked before, maybe they went through this difficulty where they looped a section and then had the unit sound different at the beginning...or maybe they had that "one magic pass" where the unit treated a vocal perfect...but in today's technological world...I think we can have the best of both worlds...let the damn machine warm up, map that warm up, put the option of multipliers by numbers or time such as 2-3-4-5-6 or," LA 2a on for one hour"...and map all of that to time code so that it is replicatable...lets have our LA 2a cake and eat it too...

So, have you used it? Got any actual tips?

[Mr_Clifford]

put the option of multipliers by numbers or time such as 2-3-4-5-6 or," LA 2a on for one hour"...and map all of that to time code so that it is replicatable...lets have our LA 2a cake and eat it too...

The thing is, that it's NOT about how many hours the machine has been powered up for. It's about what audio signal has gone through the optical cell, which has a physical memory inherent in the components. The best bet for your 'guy' looping through a chorus would be for him to immediately save the T4 cell state when he's happy with the chorus, then put bypass/enable events just before that chorus so as to reset to that T4 state whenever it gets to that point in the song.

[ghobish]

I love the way this things sounds and try not to overuse it, but I've run across the the cell reset issue and when I close a session and then open it the next day the results are, by definition, unpredictable.

I've been getting around it by, for example, duping my vocal track all the way across the song and using automation (either volume or mute, making sure the plug is pre-fader), so it is constantly being fed similar audio as long as any part of the sequence is playing. Takes a few minutes to set up and is the very definition of workaround but the sound of this plug is wonderful.

It would be great not to have to worry about this, but I don't want to break the "no rant" rule.

[Phil O]

In another thread I mentioned that the hardware unit had this type of response too, but I was used to "jumping through hoops" to get consistent results, but please understand that those were pretty easy jumps. The "warm up" time of the cell is quite fast. Although it may continue to change for many minutes after it first gets a signal the majority of the change takes place in seconds. To warm it up just go to a section of the song where it gets hit and play a few seconds then save cell memory. Done.

The other thing you can do is hit the compressor with a false signal just prior to the mix. Place a 10 second tone on the track just prior to the first occurrence of audio. Automate a mute for the track for that period and the cell gets warmed up the same way every time. If you're going to loop a section over and over again to set the compressor, stop for a minute and play the section in context for your final adjustment.

If I use an outboard compressor, I have to set up bussing, hook the unit up, adjust the knobs and record in real time. If I have to redo it tomorrow I won't get identical results, but I CAN get close enough. Get used to the fact that some things worth doing take time. It was part of the business once upon a time. I'm sure others will pipe in with their hoop jumping experiences. It ain't no big deal folks! It's called engineering and it's the fun part of the business.

Phil