Pro Verb Confusion

[Armageddon]

I've had the DP 6 upgrade for a while now, but have only recently moved from strictly composing in it (where it remains as excellent as its previous incarnations) to gearing up to record and mix audio with it. This has given me my first opportunity to explore the two new plugs, Pro Verb and the LA-2A emulator.

Admittedly, this is my first experience with a convolution reverb, so I may be a bit confused here ... why can you only load up either a left-side, right-side or a center impulse on what I assume to be is also meant to be used as a bus-send reverb? I notice there's a couple of impulses that are actually in stereo, so Pro Verb clearly has the capacity to be used as a stereo convolution reverb, but the majority of the impulses -- particularly all the ones that would normally be used as a send reverb, such as the rooms and halls -- are one side or the other (or center). Due to DP's send schematics, where you have to shift-click on the left and right send controls to send to both sides of the stereo field (something I've never really understood, although I guess it gives you more latitude with sending left and right sides of a stereo signal), I guess it makes a twisted sort of sense in that you could load up two instances of Pro Verb on two different mono busses and have the left and right impulses of a room loaded up on them ... but why? I guess it helps with placement in the stereo field, but you would have to load up four instances of Pro Verb just to get one stereo room and one stereo hall reverb bus. Altiverb, although an expensive alternative, loads up a stereo impulse and then allows you place your instrument in that stereo field without multiple instances. It also provides a host of presets to get you started ... something that neither Pro Verb nor the new LA-2A plug offer. This may be a negligible oversight to the experienced user, but to a sound engineering novice (ahem, me!) who normally delves in no further than tweaking the reverb time itself, it almost makes these plugs completely useless (or more willing to turn to third-party alternatives, which may be the point). For me, the included plug ins and virtual instruments have always been the weakest link of the DP chain, but not even including a few factory presets or the ability to use Pro Verb as a master reverb without serious compromises and more tweaking than a composer who just wants to set up a quick and easy convolution reverb to use on his tracks is willing to go through, makes me hope those much needed DP 6 upgrades address these issues.

[bayswater]

It also provides a host of presets to get you started ... something that neither Pro Verb nor the new LA-2A plug offer. This may be a negligible oversight to the experienced user, but to a sound engineering novice (ahem, me!) who normally delves in no further than tweaking the reverb time itself, it almost makes these plugs completely useless (or more willing to turn to third-party alternatives, which may be the point). For me, the included plug ins and virtual instruments have always been the weakest link of the DP chain, but not even including a few factory presets ...

??? Have a look right in the middle of the pro verb screen. There is a drop down menu with dozens of presets. It's even labelled "Factory" at the top of the preset hierarchy. These are referenced in the manual, along with a mention of the ability to use other impulse files.

[Armageddon]

Thanks for the reply! Actually, those "presets" you mention are the factory-included impulse responses, not plug-in presets. You do have the ability to create and store your own presets, which you can then access via the traditional left-hand side upper menu pulldown, but if you notice, when you load up a factory impulse, all of the reverb parameters, like pre-delay, etc., stay the same. The LA-2A emulator doesn't have presets, either. I have no idea why.

[bayswater]

Thanks for the reply! Actually, those "presets" you mention are the factory-included impulse responses, not plug-in presets. You do have the ability to create and store your own presets, which you can then access via the traditional left-hand side upper menu pulldown, but if you notice, when you load up a factory impulse, all of the reverb parameters, like pre-delay, etc., stay the same. The LA-2A emulator doesn't have presets, either. I have no idea why.

Well, the plug (Pro Verb) is not structured like other effects, so for practical purposes, the included impulses constitute presets for what I would use a preset for, a starting point to tweak. Like you, I don't have a lot of interest in designing sounds and effects from scratch, but I do tweak a lot.

On the leveler, I agree a few sample settings might help. It is well the time it takes to play around and get a feel for what it does.

[Armageddon]

Sadly, while I dig the idea of finally having an LA-2A plug to mess with, I have a bunch of other plugs in that same catagory (PSP, T-RackS) that are easier to use, so I haven't had call to mess with it as of yet. I generally avoid most of MOTU's included plugs, unless I need a CPU-efficient shelving EQ. However, back to Pro Verb ...

... assuming that I were to just load up one of the factory impulses, as discussed above, and use that on its own as a bus 'verb, given the fact that most of the room, hall and plate verbs are left or right or center, and not l/r stereo, wouldn't I have to set up two mono busses, put a mono Pro Verb on both busses and then load up the left impulse of a room or hall on one and a right impulse on the other and send to both busses to get a true "stereo" convolution reverb or a room or a hall (and, I assume, you'd also want to set up the center version of said impulse on its own mono bus for vocals, snares and leads)? While I can see a bit of merit to the idea (bypassing Altiverb's or Gigapulse's feature of being able to move a signal in the stereo field by just sending more to one side or the other in your Pro Verb setup), that seems a little counter-productive. I'd at least want to have a stereo impulse for each room or hall or plate, or, forsaking that idea due to space and expense, being able to load up both the left and right side impulses to create a usable stereo reverb without the hassle of setting up at least four mono reverbs just for your stereo room and hall sends. I understand a lot of people -- especially with the "ducking" feature on Pro Verb -- are more likely using it as an insert effect, and a LOT of people seem to be digging the plug and haven't really mentioned having to go through the above-mentioned hassle, so what am I missing?

[Armageddon]

Sigh ... I was definitely hoping to get some insights on this one. I still have Classik Reverb, PSP's vintage reverb, Wave Arts' reverb, Korg's MDE-FX reverb and Fabrik R built into my Konnekt 24D (so long as I don't go over 96 kHz or until a firmware update changes this limitation), so my "regular old reverb" is pretty well covered, but until I become desperate enough to part with $500 for Altiverb (after a $200 cross-grade for T-RackS 3), I was hoping to get some usage from Pro Verb. Any suggestions on how to build a decent true stereo bus reverb for a room and/or hall?

[monkey man]

It might be worth waiting for the imminent DP update, 'Geddon; I'm sure I'm not the only 'Cornie wondering whether or not the IR-handling features of the plug will be greatly enhanced, and whether or not MOTU will include a more extensive IR collection.

By "IR-handling features", I'm referring to the fact that only one IR can be dragged in at a time; many here would like to see some sort of ability to add an entire collection with a single drag (folders included) or something similar. I'd love, for instance, to be able to add my IR library (just free stuff, but comprehensive nevertheless) in its entirety, but the convoluted(!) process of renaming each one with clues as to which collection it's from has seen me opt to wait it out for now.

Again, the wait might be worth it, especially as we're looking at weeks and in light of the fact that the plug is new.

[Armageddon]

I appreciate the reply! Based on the overwhelming good word Pro Verb has gotten, I was beginning to think I may have just been viewing or using it wrong. It definitely has potential to be a great plug, but without a comprehensive set of l/r stereo impulses and some sort of base presets to get things started, it definitely feels unfinished (so does Leveler).

[wurliuchi]

Thanks for the reply! Actually, those "presets" you mention are the factory-included impulse responses, not plug-in presets. You do have the ability to create and store your own presets, which you can then access via the traditional left-hand side upper menu pulldown, but if you notice, when you load up a factory impulse, all of the reverb parameters, like pre-delay, etc., stay the same. The LA-2A emulator doesn't have presets, either. I have no idea why.

Don't confuse impulses with presets (if you are). I like that the parameters to stay unchanged when you load in a different impulse. Once you get the impulse you like with the parameter settings you like, save it as a preset.

Aside from the file organization of the impulses, ProVerb is pretty good. The one thing that really confused me, though, was the Effect Level parameter. It doesn't work the way I thought it did. I was getting dry signal when I wanted it 100% wet. To Get rid of the entire dry signal, you need to select Dry Level from the "Mix" menu and turn it down to zero. Turning the Effect Level up to 100%, or using one of the crossfades (3dB seems to be the default setting) leaves the dry signal in there. Kind of weird.

I'm not understanding your problem with stereo impulses. Sorry.

[bongo_x]

Most engineers would say that presets for compressors (and eq's for the most part) seems pretty silly. What you want to do with them is entirely dependent on the source. I remember everyone having a big laugh when the Yamaha digital consoles came out with compressor settings like "kick drum" etc. They wouldn't be entirely useless, maybe, but still pretty funny...

What presets would you have on a the Leveler? It only has a gain reduction knob. Different presets for different positions of the knob? Turn it until it sounds good. Push the buttons. If you don't understand how to use a compressor then presets aren't really going to help, it's not like a synth.

bb

[bayswater]

Most engineers would say that presets for compressors (and eq's for the most part) seems pretty silly. What you want to do with them is entirely dependent on the source.

You lost me with the word "entirely". Don't you think presets add some convenience? For example, if you want vocals to sound like they went through an old telephone, and there is a factory telephone preset, would you start with that, or build it from scratch? Likewise, if you have a nice UAD Fairchild setting for a guitar, doesn't saving it as a preset gives you a good sarting point for other guitars recorded in other settings?

[Armageddon]

Don't confuse impulses with presets (if you are). I like that the parameters to stay unchanged when you load in a different impulse. Once you get the impulse you like with the parameter settings you like, save it as a preset.

Aside from the file organization of the impulses, ProVerb is pretty good. The one thing that really confused me, though, was the Effect Level parameter. It doesn't work the way I thought it did. I was getting dry signal when I wanted it 100% wet. To Get rid of the entire dry signal, you need to select Dry Level from the "Mix" menu and turn it down to zero. Turning the Effect Level up to 100%, or using one of the crossfades (3dB seems to be the default setting) leaves the dry signal in there. Kind of weird.

I'm not understanding your problem with stereo impulses. Sorry.

Actually, no, I'm not confusing factory impulses with factory presets -- I've complained plenty elsewhere that Pro Verb doesn't have any presets, just impulses. All well and good if you have a working knowledge of setting up your own reverb parameters (pre-delay, etc.) from the ground up ... which I don't. I'll tweak parameters like decay time and whatnot, but I always prefer to have a list of factory presets as a jumping off point.

My confusion with the stereo impulses is, basically, Pro Verb doesn't really have any. They have a "left", "right" or "center" impulse for about ninety-five percent of their rooms, halls and plates, but they don' t have a l/r stereo impulse, except in a couple of cases, and certainly not on any of their rooms or halls. To me, this means that, if you set up a stereo send, put Pro Verb on that send and select, say, a "natural room left" impulse from the factory presets, you're not getting a stereo impulse, you're getting one side of a stereo impulse. That's not stereo, is it? Considering you can't load up both the left and the right side impulses on one instance of Pro Verb, I would then assume they intend for you to set up two mono auxiliary sends, place a mono instance of Pro Verb on both sends and load up the left side impulse on one and the right side impulse on the other. Like I said above, while I understand, to a degree, why they would do this (to mimic Altiverb's built-in ability to place instruments in a stereo field by allowing you to send more to to one side or the other with your two mono Pro Verbs), it seems impractical to me to set up four mono Pro Verb sends just to get one room and one hall stereo reverb (and I assume you'd also want the center impulse for vocals, leads and snares, so that makes six total mono reverb sends!). Maybe you'd want that, but what about people who would just appreciate having a stereo impulse to put up a basic stereo hall reverb? And I notice plenty of people are inserting Pro Verb on their tracks and seem to have no complaints about the lack of stereo impulses, so I'm also admittedly confused as to how they might be handling that.

My problems with Leveler were addressed in my first paragraph -- I'm not expecting magical answers with a list of presets (especially considering we're talking about a MOTU plug, here!), but I generally prefer a few presets as a jumping-off point.

[Shooshie]

Most engineers would say that presets for compressors (and eq's for the most part) seems pretty silly. What you want to do with them is entirely dependent on the source.

You lost me with the word "entirely". Don't you think presets add some convenience? For example, if you want vocals to sound like they went through an old telephone, and there is a factory telephone preset, would you start with that, or build it from scratch? Likewise, if you have a nice UAD Fairchild setting for a guitar, doesn't saving it as a preset gives you a good sarting point for other guitars recorded in other settings?

I've yet to find a preset for EQ or Compression/Limiting that was of any way useful to me other than to familiarize me with the controls. Even the telephone idea, I'd rather make my own, since I can get the basic sound in about two moves, then tweak to my taste. A Fairchild setting would be one person's opinion of a Fairchild. I've found that using someone else's starting point sometimes wastes my time, as I have to go back and do it another way in the end. But that's just me. Maybe presets work fine for other people.

Ironically, in each of my plugins you'll find a long list of presets labeled "shooshie-piano," or "shooshie-empty room," etc. Even MY OWN presets never seem quite right when I try to apply them to another setting, which is why the list continually grows. Eventually I clean them out and start over.


Shooshie

[Armageddon]

I think there's definitely two camps here, and if you're in the camp that also does its own sound engineering and has an extensive knowledge of compressors, limiters, reverb, etc., you'd rather use the device itself, rather that have somebody else set it up for you. I can definitely respect that. You magnificent bastards!

However, I'm in the other camp, who kind of fell ass-backwards into being their own sound engineer as a result of lack of money and/or the availability of someone who actually knows what they're doing, would rather get through a mix with a minimum of fuss, ulcers and hair-pulling and has a tight deadline in which to deliver a "finished-sounding" piece of music, so yes, please, somebody else set it up for me and I'll make some adjustments, if necessary.

[bayswater]

I think there's definitely two camps here, and if you're in the camp that also does its own sound engineering and has an extensive knowledge of compressors, limiters, reverb, etc., you'd rather use the device itself, rather that have somebody else set it up for you. I can definitely respect that. You magnificent bastards!

However, I'm in the other camp, who kind of fell ass-backwards into being their own sound engineer as a result of lack of money and/or the availability of someone who actually knows what they're doing, would rather get through a mix with a minimum of fuss, ulcers and hair-pulling and has a tight deadline in which to deliver a "finished-sounding" piece of music, so yes, please, somebody else set it up for me and I'll make some adjustments, if necessary.

I guess I'm somewhere between, closer to the preset end. But I have to say I'm a bit skeptical that it's always easier to start from scratch, now matter how good an engineer you are. If you've work hard to achieve a sound, and need it again, you wouldn't bring it up and see if you can just tweak it a bit, or even see if it does the job as is? Especially if one of the main parameters of the plug or sound is something you would be putting on an automation curve and varying anyway. At the extreme end, if you have the Waves Q10 preset, would you program a RIAA curve, or be tempted to load the preset?