More advice, Please?

[murphymusic]

I joined this forum about a year ago. I have used Performer since it's first versions (on floppy!) Last year I entered the world of DP and VIs. I had many, many questions and I learned an enormous amount from many of the members of this group. I'm hoping that I can tap into this vast wealth of knowledge and get some stellar advice once again...
Here's the deal:
I am using an older iMac, 2 ghz PPC w/2g memory(maxed), a Digi 002 console as interface, and 2 Garritan libraries (GPO & Jazz and Big Band)through Kontakt Player2.
I've been contracted to direct pit for "West Side Story" in Feb. I am now realizing the full score w/DP 5.13 I want to sequence the entire score because I never know what is going to walk through the door down the road as far as talent (Performing Arts High School). The Pit will consist of a combo of students, hired ringers and sequenced material, I plan on muting the parts covered by players, but, I won't know that piece of the puzzle until much closer to production.
Anyway.... I'm running into problems.....
The problems all seem to be CPU or Memory related, but then again, I'm a newbie. I created a V-rack for all the VIs. I am running 5 instances of Kontakt Player2 and they are pretty well full. I don't think I've used all 16 channels on each but, I'm close. I also have one instance of Miroslav Philharmonik (Demo) one channel only. The music cues I've done are in the chunks playlist, all drawing sound from the v-rack.

The scoring is so dense that I cannot use the digi 002 at all, the buffer through the digi (core audio) only goes as high as 1024 and the sonic distortion is intolerable. So, I am using the internal audio through the iMac with the buffer set at 4096 for mixing and 512 for tracking. While tracking, I have to mute and solo tracks to avoid the distortion. To mix, I have to switch the buffer to 4096 (and still there are slight sonic anomalies). So....I am constantly switching buffer settings. Switching the buffer setting causes Kontakt to dump and reload all samples which takes minutes (seems like forever, because I have to do it so often). Needless to say, my workflow really sucks!
By the way.. I did purchase the DP 6.01 upgrade w/it's pre-rendering magic and incredible CPU efficiency. It too, is unusable. Agonizingly slow, pinwheel of death at every move etc...etc.... It is on my hard drive, but I must still use DP 5.13 to get any kind of work done.
So friends... this is where you come in....I would like your advice.
I'm thinking that I am taxing "this old mac" beyond it's limits, however, I would like confirmation from those wiser than I.
I'm hoping that a computer upgrade will cure all of my problems, am I being naive?
I am willing to pop for a new iMac (budget not to exceed 2k) if it is the general consensus of the group that it would improve my situation substantially. I am considering a new dual core intel imac 2.88 or 3.? maxed with 4 gig ram. I can justify the coin if it works the way I'm hoping. I just really would be seriously bummed to spend the dough and still have the same issues.

Please, share your wisdom?

[dirty penguin]

Have you tried freezing tracks?

[Bennie Sims]

You are taxing that old machine beyond its capabilities. You need at least a duo core computer to be safe beyond all doubts. 6.01 is too much to handle before u even start any work on that machine. This is my opinion from my experiences, maybe someone else has a different one.

[FMiguelez]

.

Yes. I would definietly invest on a newer, much more powerful machine. Oh, and as much RAM as you can afford, since you are using a lot of samples. Believe me. You will be VERY happy with a better computer

[dosuna11]

Two used for $ of one new machine. Try get a used G5 or 2 that you can use for VI's as a MIDI playback using MMC and output the sound into the 002. That will take some of the load off of your iMac and spread the CPU load. New is good, but along with that come upgrades and more $$$ and VI incompatibility. Also try using the lite versions of the Garritan VI. Are your VI's on a separate HD?

[murphymusic]

Try get a used G5 or 2 that you can use for VI's as a MIDI playback using MMC and output the sound into the 002. That will take some of the load off of your iMac and spread the CPU load.

Can you explain how this is done? I would love to find a more economical way of achieving smoother work flow and audio quality. How do I spread the CPU load and connect two computers together?

Are your VI's on a separate HD?

No, they are not. everything is happening from the internal HD of the iMac. I do have a Glyph GT050Q (320 G), but the samples don't live there. I thought that even with a firewire drive, access is much slower than an internal drive. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Am I wrong?? If I am, how do I go about putting the samples on the glyph and tell DP where to look for them? Would this possibly cure my ailments?

[dosuna11]

I set up an audio MIDI device to run it in the audio MIDI set up. I just open the K2 or many as a stand alones and firewire into my 828 mk2. You could go from the fire wire out on 002 into both computers. That is if it has 2 firewire ports. You will need to understand audio mid set in utilities. Having your VI's on a different drive is more efficient as the main drive does not get bogged down.

[murphymusic]

I'm not sure that I understand.....
How about the possibility of installing my Garritan libraries (and K2 player?) on my Glyph drive? Would this be beneficial??
Sorry, but I'm not following your directions.

[Shooshie]

There are a lot of considerations. First, an old hand at DP can get a LOT more out of it than a beginner. No offense intended, but that's just the way it's going to be until you start figuring out the tricks, no matter what computer you use. Having said that, I'll agree with the others here that your computer is grossly underpowered for doing a full, working score with live MIDI orchestra. It can handle it, however, if you bounce tracks to audio. "Freeze" is the more accurate word. Once a MIDI track is frozen, it is used as an audio track, with the MIDI track disabled. It takes more CPU power to create virtual instruments "live" than to play back their recorded audio.

There are various tricks for getting the most of your CPU, including spreading your VI libraries around to other busses (Firewire, SATA, USB, and PCI) and learning how to use the pre-rendering. I work faster with pre-rendering turned off, though it takes more CPU hit during playback. DP 6.01 is relatively stable for me, but not as stable as 5.13, which was the most stable build of DP since OSX came out. There are many things at work here: drivers for audio, drivers for MIDI, a certain amount of "unknowns" which may include permissions settings, installed software, other drivers, or even CPU reliability and computer design. Each model of Mac has its quirks.

Then there is the computer itself. No question you're underpowered for DP, and while it doesn't make any sense, it's just the facts, Ma'am. Intel Macs are a breath of fresh air after watching the PPC chip painfully reach the leveled off stage of its evolutionary curve. I cannot recommend highly enough that you upgrade. Seriously, it's the best investment you can make if you do a lot of music.

But there is one other thing to consider:

Ultimately, if your purpose is to make a score, I'd be putting my time and energies into Sibelius or Finale, not DP. You can't make them perform VI's with the subtlety of a DAW like DP, and they're not going to be of much use for recording the audio, but they are great for making scores, and DP is very limited in this department.


Shooshie

[murphymusic]

"Freeze" is the more accurate word. Once a MIDI track is frozen, it is used as an audio track, with the MIDI track disabled. It takes more CPU power to create virtual instruments "live" than to play back their recorded audio.

I know the advantages of freezing tracks. I have thought about freezing the entire score to audio before production. The problem is simply in getting the parts in.. as is, the process is really freakin'slow.

There are various tricks for getting the most of your CPU, including spreading your VI libraries around to other busses (Firewire, SATA, USB, and PCI) and learning how to use the pre-rendering.

Can you tell me if it would be advantageous to put my libraries on my Glyph drive?
I cannot use the 6.01 upgrade I purchased. I can run it, but it and the pre-rendering seemed utterly useless. Maybe my computer can't handle it??

Ultimately, if your purpose is to make a score, I'd be putting my time and energies into Sibelius or Finale, not DP. You can't make them perform VI's with the subtlety of a DAW like DP, and they're not going to be of much use for recording the audio, but they are great for making scores, and DP is very limited in this department.

I'm not using DP to make a score. I own a full score of the show. I'm using DP to perform the score.

I cannot recommend highly enough that you upgrade. Seriously, it's the best investment you can make if you do a lot of music.

I do a great deal of music. Do you think that a new iMac 2.88 4gig would be the answer to my DP prayers. I really don't want to have to get into the 8 core $

[Shooshie]

I do a great deal of music. Do you think that a new iMac 2.88 4gig would be the answer to my DP prayers. I really don't want to have to get into the 8 core $

It's powerful enough to make a huge difference in the way you work, but I simply think a Mac Pro is more suited to this kind of work. Perhaps an older Mac Pro dual duo (four-cores). Is it the answer to your prayers? Part of it. The other part is experience. For example, I am able to work in DP 6.01 without too many problems. I'd like for it to be as stable as 5.13, but it's not. That doesn't mean I can't use it for real work. I have had no real frustrations with it, but I'm not pushing it to do film scores with video running, and at the moment I'm not doing 150-track arrangements. (In days past, I've created files with over 350 tracks of MIDI) The difference is experience, I think, and frequent backups. I'm not saying I never complain, but words like "useless" never enter my mind in conjunction with DP 6.01.

Of course, experience comes from problems you solve, which come from just keeping on working. There are people in this forum who create a dozen files a week in DP, and who have to turn them in on a deadline. Some are using DP6.01. Some, like you, are using 5.13. They all report problems, but they make their deadlines one way or another. Sometimes that means doing part of their work in another app, though DP remains central to most of their work. It's just experiencing growing pains right now, but it will be better in a release or two.

Still, to answer your question, yes; a dual duo Mac Pro would be most advantageous. Ask around; some years were better than others. Some were nearly unusable. Find one that works. Mine does, and I bought it in February of 2007. Shortly afterward the Mac went through a period of instability, followed by even better models. So... ask around for good years/models, and see if you can get a new one or used one that is going to work great. It's time for a good testimonial thread in which people tell us what they use and if it's a good version of the Mac.

Also, I'd put at least one VI on that Glyph. I've got about 7 external HD's for a total of about 3 TB of external space, and 4 internal SATA for about a TB. I have them loaded in such a way that the same drive/bus is never being asked to read and write at the same time, and that the same drive is not having to read multiple VI's at the same time. It helps.

Shooshie