Why are real tech specs missing on all MOTU gear?

[ErikssonM]

Discovered the following recently.

Having obtained a MOTU 828mk3 interface, I scrutinized downloaded things, the manual and online specs about it, but can't find any Technical Specifications on it. On all others, say M-AUDIO, TC Electronic, RME, PreSonus, Focusrite et al there are at least at the end of pages some formal technical specifications. I do really know that tech specs aint all there is to it, and it differs with different sampling frequency and so on - say frequency respones, and S/N ratio. But I do definitely want crosstalk between channels figure and S/N ratio and dynamic range, anyway, so I have something to compare to.

Is there anyone who knows why MOTU has - in some way - hidden this, or not listing it at all? Others do.

Features are all ok, but that's not all there is to it. OR, guide me to some pages where they are? Can't find any as it is for now. I have a suspicion that their crosstalk figures ain't up to snuff.

[1nput0utput]

Do you hear crosstalk? Do you see crosstalk interference in tracks recorded from adjacent analog inputs? If the answer to both questions is no, then the actual measured number probably doesn't matter.

[kassonica]

Jitter details would be nice.

[ErikssonM]

Yes I both hear and see crosstalk. I can see them on as low db peaks, and when removed, (SMPTE code or cV signal) it disappears and the meters calms down to -96 db or whatever. It is very reminiscent of old multitrack tapes when any sync code had to be maxxed out to 0 db on one track and could be overheard on adjacent tracks. It is not loud, but loud enough so that not any noise gate would be an option. One notices it immediately. Since the rest of the noise is very very silent, and S/N ratio are stellar, one immediately notice it when you kill that signal. It's dead silent then. As it should be. The thing is, it's not only on adjacent analog inputs, but even when put together as one audio signal in input 1, and cv signal at input 8. It doesnt' matter. It's not adjacent tracks even.

The funny thing is the following: That analog CV signal from Guitar Rig Kontrol, I put through another box first (a BOSS VF-1 fx unit) who acts as a converter and brings it to a proper SPDIF signal. And it transfers nicely into the SPDIF input of the MOTU 828mk3. BUT! It still can be heard over the other tracks (all others). Which is even more confusing, that a digital signal should leak. Which must imply that the leak takes place somewhere along the DA line at the output, not in the AD conversion line. Since I've muted all analog inputs then, and just leaving the spdif input on and main 1/2 out on, it must leak, and blend somehwere down at the DA conversion at the output. The SMPTE code is routed all differently and as according to the manual. Never mind that. It's just the same. This wasn't really the thread. It was why tech specs are missing, from both manuals and their site.

Do you hear crosstalk? Do you see crosstalk interference in tracks recorded from adjacent analog inputs? If the answer to both questions is no, then the actual measured number probably doesn't matter.

[James Steele]

It is very reminiscent of old multitrack tapes when any sync code had to be maxxed out to 0 db on one track and could be overheard on adjacent tracks.

I'm not taking issue with your general thread at all, but I have to say that I found that the trick with striping longitudinal SMPTE on an analog multitrack was finding the lowest level you at which you could print the signal and still have the reading device (like MTP/AV etc) be able to read it. I was able to print it lower. Also generally you only had crosstalk on 1 channel. For example, if you striped TC on channel 24 on a 2" reel, you'd leave a "guard track" and not use channel 23.

[ErikssonM]

It is very reminiscent of old multitrack tapes when any sync code had to be maxxed out to 0 db on one track and could be overheard on adjacent tracks.

I'm not taking issue with your general thread at all, but I have to say that I found that the trick with striping longitudinal SMPTE on an analog multitrack was finding the lowest level you at which you could print the signal and still have the reading device (like MTP/AV etc) be able to read it. I was able to print it lower. Also generally you only had crosstalk on 1 channel. For example, if you striped TC on channel 24 on a 2" reel, you'd leave a "guard track" and not use channel 23.

Whatever, I can't use any channel as a guard track around here. It's bloating all over the place, i e at output. And this may worked with SMPTE code, but not cv signals. Some TimeCode required hot printing, in order to buck dropouts which was more sensitive on lower levels. And it prints on recorded material, so there's nothing that it only is heard at output. It prints on recorded wav-files.

Enough of this, wheres the tech specs?
Why do they not list tech specs like others do?

Please, if everybody cares, my crosstalk issues, ARE in fact on another thread already. Go there and answer on that bit, this is under Gripes, petitions, theoretical discussions. The other one are MOTU hardware and Windows, this is about why they dont have any tech specs, and I think it's peculiar no one has answered on this yet.

http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... 14&t=28373

[miguelmrq]

I've once emailed motu to ask for this and they promptly replied.

I was looking for tech specs for MOTU Traveler, mostly interested in maximum output level to do correct gain structure in my studio.

I sugest you do the same!

[James Steele]

Whatever... I was just saying that you don't always have to print timecode super hot is all. And most TC readers can handle momentary drop-outs. I suggest you do what was suggested and write to MOTU and ask them for whatever spec it is that you need to know.

[ErikssonM]

and so I have (last week) still waiting for reply. They would minimize support mails on this, if they had this already in manuals or out in the site. Everybody else does this, but why not MOTU?!

[carrythebanner]

Maybe because of stuff like this?

[1nput0utput]

Maybe because of stuff like this?

Brilliant.
+1000000000 (<-That's my meaningless number for the day.)

[kassonica]

Maybe because of stuff like this?

Brilliant.
+1000000000 (<-That's my meaningless number for the day.)

Ditto

If I showed you specs on prism converters that were less then a motu interface what would you buy?

[HCMarkus]

I checked Apogee's site, and no THD, S/N or Crosstalk specs are to be found. I, too would like to see specs published by manufacturers, but am mindful that there is no FTC standard for pro gear (like there is for consumer amplifiers) so it would be hard to know if we are comparing apples to apples.

Here are the "Specs" for Apogee Ensemble... they look a lot like the MOTU-published "Specs".

Features & Specs

8 channels of premium 24-bit 192K AD/DA conversion

4 digitally controlled 75db microphone preamps

2 fully balanced inserts on mic pre channels

4 Hi-Z instrument inputs capable of handling high level instruments

2 individual, controllable and assignable high level headphone outputs

2, 6 or 8 channel monitor outputs

8 channels of ADAT I/O

FireWire 400 I/O, compatible with OS X Core Audio (no driver required)

2 channels of SPDIF I/O

“Soft Limit” for maximum digital input level without overs

“UV22HR” for superior dither of 24 bit resolution down to 16-bit

Advanced, dual-stage “Intelliclock”

Complete integration and control with Apple’s Logic Pro Software

Compatibility with any CoreAudio software applications

Apogee’s Maestro Software for advanced control and routing outside of Logic Pro

[kgdrum]

specs are specs and there are lots of ways to fudge specs(wattage of equipment is often very misleading)
I try not to judge equipment on specs,while specs can be a guideline............
I prefer trusting my ears.
some of the finest equipment out there offers little in the way of specs,some of the worst equipment try to sell their products entirely off of specs because people believe what is in print.

[ErikssonM]

Well, specs are always made with the caveat "All specifications are subject to change without prior notice" HOWEVER, a downloadable version of their MANUAL could very well iron out issues to see if it's possible to do this or that, and HOW you go about it. If it's simpler or more intuitive than that of another brands operation. And that that RTFM comparison could very well be a deal breaker or maker of any product.

I still don't know of any SHOP that allows you to cruise in, and start trying out soundcards, or sound interfaces on your PC to see if they're to your liking or not. I mean this is NOT like it is in audiophile business, that some fairy dust tells you it sound better that anything else. Often, in that business, fairy dust and high prices are the guide for decoying and deceiving people into buying it and making it sound better. All that fluffy new-agey thing. Most of them avoid blind tests, if they should be given a coat hanger higher remarks on a speaker cable sound, than that of a 1.000 dollar high tech wire, rolled on the thighs of a virgin only in full moon. Which was actually the real case a while back. It's on the internet somewhere, this coat hanger tests.

Talked the other day to the Swedish distributor of MOTU, on the phone. For some kind of support, he'd talked to MOTU in advance. Very busy man. Actually, he was the one phoning up ME, but the call was interrupted a number of times on his side, by answering OTHER calls all fo the time, from others. Took half an hour to discuss something that would've been done in 2 minutes. Didn't resolve the issue. Other than that he insulted me, by implying in kind words, that they've never had any failed units of this kind, and of 2-300 units sold in Sweden, this is a fist, so by conclusion OF THESE STATISTICS (how about that one? Stats are relied upon in this case but not the other, stats, specs, ...funny thing isn't it?) he ruled out that it was a faulty unit. So, basically, it was me who couldn't hook things up right. The music shop must also be like this unable to hook up things right, since they confirmed this issue too. Peculiar isn't it?

I prefer trusting my ears too, and I hear leakage and crosstalk on code signals on this unit that I can't get rid of. On the other unit (old M-AUDIO unit) there was absolutely NONE of this, otherwise I wouldn't have noticed it. This unit is bought for using as a standalone too, so when playing live it must be up to snuff. The main thing I use it live for, is the ability to use Guitar RIg with Kontroller 1 but not the only one. That Kontroller sends out a CV signal on one channel that is used to control patches and pedal movements in Guitar Rig. On stage, with a drummer, one just have to turn up loud to a certain level, and then this leak can very well be heard, especially on compressor settings. Now, I use other gear as well directly connected to the MOTU, as I wanted to be some kind of general standalone mixer for other purposes too. If I wanted to use GR only, I could very well continue using my older M-AUDIO card.