DP & Pro Tools HD

[Housealien]

So I get a phone call from my friend who hasn't put out any music. He has it stored all on his Triton, Motif, etc. He owns Cubase, Logic and now Pro Tools HD. He keeps bugging me to swtich to Pro Tools HD because it's the industry standard, etc. I told him that it didn't matter what software you use, what matters is how you use it. In the end, you are gonna have to get it mastered from an engineer. I know a guy who uses Cakewalk's SONAR and he is on his 35th release. I have used Cubase(loved it, with the exception that it always crashed because they don't make hardware for it), Logic(it's too complicated for me, unless I learn it from someone else) and stayed with DP(since DP3) because of it's ease of use and MOTU makes hardware(plug & play!!!). I am totally comfortable with using MOTU and just upgraded to DP6. I have also invested way too much money to make another platform switch. MOTU is a stable platform for me and I enjoy it.

However, some of my other friends have made the switch from DP to Pro Tools HD. I guess my question is, why should I stay with DP and not switch to Pro Tools?

Thanks!

Ricardo

[Jeff E]

Price verses value..
1. Will the investment of $7500 verses the $1000 for a DP system make you that much more money in the current economic climate?
2. Are you continually losing business because you do not have it?
3. Are the features that are on PTHD a must have for you? Can you do a work around in any other way?


Just some thoughts for you that I had to consider...


Jeff E

[ghobish]

Pro Tools is, honestly, an excellent program and extremely stable, but the reason I stay with DP (apart from the fcat that I'm very comfortable with it) is that I do not want to get locked into the Digidesign hardware upgrade path. I use DP with both a 2408 Mk II and my Metric Halo 2882+dsp Expanded, I couldn't pull that off with a Pro Tools rig.

I do have an mBox with PTLE for those clients who bring in the occasional existing project that needs to be worked on in ProTools, but I almost always end up exporting said project to DP when comes time to mix or master.

[grouse]

plus, if you record using MIDI, DP appears to be better than pro-tools in that department.

[Mr_Clifford]

I told him that it didn't matter what software you use, what matters is how you use it.

You nailed it right there. Moving the mic on a guitar amp one inch makes more difference than ANY DAW choice.

[tripit@earthlink.net]

Their are many reasons and considerations. The ones mentioned above are all good.
Other considerations are plug-in choices, latency issues, the need to have compatible formats.
I would take them into consideration as well.
Also, don't forget that you can use DP to front PT hardware as well.

[Kubi]

Advantages of PTHD:

- it is indeed the industry standard, you can take a PT session almost anywhere with far more ease than a DP or even a Logic project
- absolute ease of analog integration, live recording etc. - no latency issues at all. Use it like an old analog studio.
- stability

Disadvantages:

- PRICE - for hardware
- PRICE for plug-ins - TDM format plugs cost quite literally twice as much as their native counterparts
- inferior MIDI, though they are definitely catching up
- No AU/VST
- forced obsolescence by Digi every few years. While that's not that different from any other DAW setup, your investment in a given PTHD rig is far greater.

While it's possible to use DP as a DAE front end, at least since DP5 it's been problematic.

Bottom line for me - if you have the means, need to exchange files with other studios regularly and do a LOT of live recording, incl good amount of multi-track recording, it's well worth considering. But if you work mostly electronically, record single tracks mostly and don't exchange entire sessions with others regularly, why spend the substantial extra dough? By the time you're done with interfaces, plug-ins etc. you're easily $20k in the hole.

[Housealien]

Thanks to everyone for their response! This topic was very helpful. Love you DP!

[tripit@earthlink.net]

Advantages of PTHD:


- forced obsolescence by Digi every few years. While that's not that different from any other DAW setup, your investment in a given PTHD rig is far greater.

While it's possible to use DP as a DAE front end, at least since DP5 it's been problematic.

Bottom line for me - if you have the means, need to exchange files with other studios regularly and do a LOT of live recording, incl good amount of multi-track recording, it's well worth considering. But if you work mostly electronically, record single tracks mostly and don't exchange entire sessions with others regularly, why spend the substantial extra dough? By the time you're done with interfaces, plug-ins etc. you're easily $20k in the hole.

The forced obsolescence is not really every few years. More like every 5 to 7 years, although many people go even longer. It is expensive though.

DP front end does have some issues, but I've been using it as a stable platform successfully everyday for the last 7 years. The biggest issue has been some lacking features, that are now available in DP6. But, with that said, DP6 has more issues than DP5.13. Hopefully, MOTU will fix these in the coming updates.

I agree with Kubi's bottom line.

[bradycline]

I'm more of a home studio guy, so I really shouldn't get caught up too much in this, but having just come from a day at a very nice pro PT studio, I was reminded of just how integrated PT is with everything else in the studio. As mentioned earlier, using it without ever thinking of latency is huge. Honestly, I think this comes around to another recent thread which expresses two major concerns frustrations many DP users have:

1. MOTU is a hardware company -- why on earth don't they create an integrated solution that directly competes with the smaller PT setups (mixer etc) If I am not mistaken, Motu is now the only major player (are they one?) who doesn't have some sort of integrated solution - Even Sonar has jumped into that market -- wow!

2. Again, it seems that MOTU must make most of their $$$ from selling lower/mid-range consumer hardware. It seems that much of their software is outsourced and the resources they devote to DP are limited. As someone else just posted, the demos of PT 8 show just how much improvement can be made in a single update. (MIDI looks great BTW)

Sorry if this is somewhat OT -- there are obviously lots of reasons people continue to use and love DP. I just worry that DP's competition has closed the gap, or surpassed DP in the very areas that DP was most renowned for. I think all of DP's competition has been bought-out by large companies, and for the most part those programs are better for it. For those who have struggled to explain why they use DP instead of PT the justifications (other than price) are getting harder and harder. It is horrible to say but, I'd like to still be using DP 5 years from now, but MOTU must aggressively compete or sell out to someone who can.

I don't see why MOTU can't do it themselves: sell a fully integrated board with basic DSP and develop (license if they have to) their own PT-DP-PT translator plugin so that DP can directly open and save in native PT format -- go ahead and charge an extra $1,000 for it, and those who need it will gladly pay. Suddenly 90% of the reasons pros have for not using DP disappear.

[Mr_Clifford]

1. MOTU is a hardware company -- why on earth don't they create an integrated solution that directly competes with the smaller PT setups (mixer etc) If I am not mistaken, Motu is now the only major player (are they one?) who doesn't have some sort of integrated solution - Even Sonar has jumped into that market -- wow!

They do, it's called 'CueMix' which integrates into DP via the 'Direct Hardware Playthrough' option. That setup blows the 'smaller PT setups (ie. PTLE with a 003 or M-Box)' out of the water. Even using TotalMix on my RME in conjunction with DP totally beats the PTLE monitoring options. What's even more ironic is that using my RME as master clock and audio front end for Pro Tools LE (via ADAT lightpipe) blows away what I can do in PTLE just using my 002.

[beautypill]

Pro Tools HD is a venerable platform that everyone knows is due for an update.

In the age of Apogee Symphony / UAD2, etc. it's just silly.

Wait 'til Digi comes out with the new system, whatever that will be, then you can buy your friends' HD systems at the market rate. The market rate for doorstops.

- c

[jnunally]

The main reason I still continue to use DP over PT is that there is no hardware required to monitor and work on mixes from my Macbook, when not in my studio. This is reason enough for me not to use PT for my main studio software.
I purchased an Mbox for the purpose of taking on the road so I could continue to work on projects while in airports and on planes, forget it, too cumbersome. I sold it. Now they have a little gadget to rectify that issue, problem is that it lists for $279, only works on files up to 48k. I would buy for it if I could work on 96K files, which is what I mostly record to these days. Macbook can playback 96k files.
There are a lot of features in DP I have grown used to over the years that aren't in PT. But I just looked at the preview of PT8 and it is looking like a good contender for some of those.
So for now I am sticking with DP simply because of the convenience of use while on the road, among other things.

Jim


Macpro, OS10.4, DP 5.12, HD192, 2408, Traveler, PTle 7.1, 002r, blah, blah, blah...

[donreynolds]

1. MOTU is a hardware company -- why on earth don't they create an integrated solution that directly competes with the smaller PT setups (mixer etc) If I am not mistaken, Motu is now the only major player (are they one?) who doesn't have some sort of integrated solution - Even Sonar has jumped into that market -- wow!

They do, it's called 'CueMix' which integrates into DP via the 'Direct Hardware Playthrough' option. That setup blows the 'smaller PT setups (ie. PTLE with a 003 or M-Box)' out of the water. Even using TotalMix on my RME in conjunction with DP totally beats the PTLE monitoring options. What's even more ironic is that using my RME as master clock and audio front end for Pro Tools LE (via ADAT lightpipe) blows away what I can do in PTLE just using my 002.

If I am not mistaken though, you cannot use CUEMIX if you are using two devices as an aggregate unite as I am. I have to do this if I am to record more than 8 tracks at once. If I am mistaken, someone please let me know fo I can use CUEMIX.

[plurye]

DP front end does have some issues, but I've been using it as a stable platform successfully everyday for the last 7 years. The biggest issue has been some lacking features, that are now available in DP6. But, with that said, DP6 has more issues than DP5.13. Hopefully, MOTU will fix these in the coming updates.

With PT 8 coming out and finally having a notation editor, I may bite the bullet and trade in my PCI-X HD accel cards for PCIe cards, and make the leap to Mac Pro/Leopard for my master machine. My question is this - along with PT I've used DP 5.13 with an HD Accel 3 system for years - it has its issues, but for the most part it's useable. BUT... if you can't record from internal busses (as is the case in 6.01 in DAE mode) it would be unusable for me. Do you know if DP 5.13 in Leopard on a Mac Pro has this problem? 5.13 in Tiger on a G5 does not.

Thanks,
Peter