Caveats of deviating from traditional sitting positions...

[FMiguelez]

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Besides having to move the Timpani and Bass Drum more towards the left (from the conductor's POV) to avoid "cracked" notes for the horns, what are the disadvantages of having the horn section behind the woodwinds?
All I can think of is what I just wrote, and maybe the disadvantage of having them further from the heavy brass for the ensemble work, but I TOTALLY DIGG when the horns are behind the WW's spread out in a single row on top of a slightly higher plattaform a bit towards the left. To me, not only do they sound so much better and clearer, but it makes the orchestra sound more balanced in terms of timbre and distribution. Not only that, but seeing a row of 6-8 horns spread out like that is a feast to the eyes as well. It sounds and looks magnificent. That's also the way I pan my horn section with my sample orchestra, and the balance sounds much better to me.
I wonder why this is relatively rare? Down here, the horns are usually placed next to the heavy brass, and I don't like it too much. So, from back to front, they sit the trombones/Tuba row, then the trumpets row, and then the Horns. So with passages where there's a lot of brass writing, and light percussion, the orchestral balance seems to be right-heavy, and often the Horns are overwhelmed (in terms of volume) by the heavy brass.

Are there any inconveniences besides the two that I mentioned above that I'm not aware of?

What about the second Violins? I LOVE it when, occasionally, they are sat where the VCs normally are. So, from conductor's left to right you get: Vlns I, Vlas, VCs and Vlns II (and the DBs in two rows behind the VCs and Vlns II).
To me, it sounds more balanced, and VERY interesting effects can be accentuated this way. It's almost as if the Vlns II get more importance, just by giving them a more autonomous voice away from the Vlns I.

For those of you who conduct orchestras, what are your views and observations with these alternative seating plans? Is there a real, practical reason for this, or it has more to do with tradition?
Besides, wasn't it typical for older orchestras to distribute the strings like this anyway?

[Nigel Keay]

When I did replacement (viola playing) work for the Auckland Philharmonia I remember that the horns were placed over to the left. I remember some friction one time when a visiting German conductor arrived for a concert and didn't like that arrangement; he wanted them to move back with the other brass, no doubt as he was used to that, but they wouldn't budge. I remember the first horn player saying "we like it here". I have one orchestration book that describes one of the functions of the horn section as acting as a "sonic glue", so the spacialized arrangement with the horns on the left makes a lot of sense from this point of view. I've certainly see some French orchestras with horns placed to the left.

As for the string seating possibilities, I think that no one arrangement will be optimal for all repertoire. Second violins to the right suits earlier repertoire with distinct antiphonal-style writing, but that's going to be less good for an orchestration technique such as dividing a difficult string line into adjacent fragments to make it more playable, where the object is to arrive at the effect of a single line. The French National Orchestra have the violas over on the right (vln1, vln2, vcl, vla). Even though the violas face inwards, the violns are together, and the celli face forwards. That arrangement seems to work quite well.

[FMiguelez]

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What do YOU prefer, Mike? (not for which side of the animal you prefer, but the instrument's positions )

I've also seen a more radical approach, where ALL the DB section is spread in a line behind the Percussion and WWs, all the way to the back. Looks, beautiful, but I didn't like the sound too much. It seemed the bass register was lacking a bit of focus.

Now, that would make THEM the arses of the bull

[bkshepard]

Great topic FM! I've been a professional orchestral percussionist for nearly 30 years and have seen, and played in, all kinds of orchestral setups. I also teach composition and orchestration, so the topic comes up frequently with my students. All the various setups have positives and negatives. One setup might work wonderfully for a piece by one composer, but be much less effective for a piece by another composer (or even a different piece by the same composer).

For instance, putting the second violins to the right of the conductor sounds great if the music is written in a way where the two sections are treated as contrapuntal equals, but if the seconds are used more for harmonic support to the firsts, it sounds better to have them located next to the firsts. Similar issues arise with nearly every configuration. Unfortunately, it's not practical--or economical--to reposition the orchestra for every piece, so conductors tend to settle on one compromise configuration and stick with it.

As for the basses across the back, I remember seeing Berlin do that years ago. I think the concept was that since the orchestra tunes chords from the bottom up, it made sense to have the basses located in such a way that their sound radiated up through the entire orchestra. As you mentioned, though, that does tend to diffuse the bass sound and make it kind of muddy.

I personally like the horns to be in a row directly behind the woodwinds as you describe, with the trumpets, trombones and tuba directly behind them. Since the horn can so wonderfully blend with the woodwinds (and almost all the instruments of the orchestra), I think they sound great in that central location. With the directional quality of the trumpets and trombones, their sound can get out over the orchestra, even from that far back. Putting the horns directly behind the woodwinds actually has another benefit that a lot of people don't realize. When the horns are centered in front of the other brasses, it puts the horns and tuba in closer proximity to each other. The tuba, like the horns, has a conical shape and is used quite frequently as a 5th (bass) horn by many composers.

I have also seen conductors put the timpani on the side opposite the percussion section so that they are closer to the basses and tuba. For some pieces, this makes sense as the timpani are treated as a bass line instrument quite frequently. However, just as often, they are treated as a pitched drum and need to coordinate with the other members of the percussion section. If they are separated from each other, this gets difficult and quite noticeable when they don't coordinate.

Just random thoughts on a subject I've thought a lot about over the years...

[FMiguelez]

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Hey, thank you for replying, bkshepard.

It's awesome to read your input, since you are a professional orchestral percussionist.
Please tell me something:
Is it really that bad to have the timpani too close to the horns? I ask because I've read about it, that the sound-wave shock from the timps can go inside the horns' bells and make the players "crack" notes. In your experience, is this the case? Or does it happen under certain circumstances?

Since I go to concerts at least twice a week, I've been be-friending a few of the players, you know, to learn from them as much as possible. Since I have not had the pleasure/honor to conduct, nor played at a real orchestra, this is the second best thing I can do, I guess. This is one of the reasons I devoured Shatskin's book on orchestration (sorry--I think I misspelled his name). He talks about all the topics form a PLAYER's point of view. I loved it!

Please feel free to comment a bit more on anything about this, your experiences, etc.

Thanks!

[bkshepard]

It can be a problem if the drums are quite close to the horns. Certain notes will actually get stuffed back into the horn's tube as a result of the air movement from the timpani. It can be an even bigger problem with the bass drum since it's head is usually oriented in a way that pushes the air sideways. I always try to keep the bass drum positioned in a way to prevent that. As for the timpani, a little bit of separation or even a low plexiglass shield between the drums and the horn usually fixes the problem.

[bOing]

I've seen this before. There's nothing more tragic than watching a drummer trying to hit on girls through plexiglass.
[oh wait...I think I'm in the wrong section.]

[twistedtom]

This is interesting as it also relates to creating a balanced sound with VI's. Good reading thanks all.


MIDI that is one horny bull.

[bOing]

This is interesting as it also relates to creating a balanced sound with VI's. Good reading thanks all.

I'm not qualified to make concrete statements here, but I think that the presence of soundwaves from the timpani would only affect actual physical soundwaves, not virtual ones. However, the traditional sonic landscape idea would lend to making a performance more authentic sounding. [no spitballs, please].

[twistedtom]

I think it would relate more to surround placement but may also work in stereo, taken reverb pan and Eq as to placement.

[bOing]

I say, those guys are lucky to have a chair anywhere on stage. Can't do that in a rock band.

[bkshepard]

One of the interesting things about working with orchestral instrument VIs is that most of the time, the individual instruments and sections are all recorded in full-width stereo. That can make the individual sounds difficult to "place" in a soundstage. I've gotten in the habit when I'm creating an orchestral sound of using the trim plug to narrow the individual instrument's sound to mono--or near mono--and then I can use the track's pan knob to place it in the proper L/R arrangement. For sections like first violin, seconds, etc., I also use the trim plug, but don't narrow it all the way down to mono. I leave it with a little width. Then when I have all the instruments panned the way I want, I add a nice stereo reverb.

[FMiguelez]

One of the interesting things about working with orchestral instrument VIs is that most of the time, the individual instruments and sections are all recorded in full-width stereo. That can make the individual sounds difficult to "place" in a soundstage. I've gotten in the habit when I'm creating an orchestral sound of using the trim plug to narrow the individual instrument's sound to mono--or near mono--and then I can use the track's pan knob to place it in the proper L/R arrangement. For sections like first violin, seconds, etc., I also use the trim plug, but don't narrow it all the way down to mono. I leave it with a little width. Then when I have all the instruments panned the way I want, I add a nice stereo reverb.

I could not agree with you more. It was kind Mr. Frodo who first gave me that tip.

One caveat, though: Be careful when you pan your trimmed stereo signal. If you do it too much, you will loose a bit of whatever width you set with the trim. What has worked for me quite well is to leave the pan-pot at center, and do the panning and sound-stage setting all with the Trim plug.
The only thing is that it you do this, then it's not very intuitive: If you want to view your settings, you need to open the plug... But, other than that, it works very nicely.

[bkshepard]

FM, you're absolutely right about panning too far to the side. I always do it with a lot of trial-and-listen until it sounds the way I want. I don't have any set formula. I've spent many years as an orchestral musician, conductor and composer and I just trim and pan until it sounds like what I'm used to hearing in the real world.