Panning with a trio

[robert mahoney]

I am curious about how you all place instruments in a jazz trio mix(pno,bs,drums). It seems that many modern recordings pan piano treble
right,piano bass left,similarly with the drums the ride is right and the HH on the left. String bass centered.
The bass makes sense to me, but I find the drums and piano distracting and unnatural sounding. Is this done to make the piano sound huge or are they trying to match the players perspective?
When I am playing the piano the treble is more on the right but not to the extreme that I hear in recordings.
Examples:Marcin Wasilewski Trio,"January" on ECM,2008(gorgeous),or the studio recordings of my current piano hero,Brad Mehldau.
A piano listened to on axis from an audience perspective has the bass on the right,treble left, but this is very subtle.
The usual caveats about taste apply, of course, but what am I missing here? Perhaps I'm not new agey enough or I didn't do enough acid in the 70's! I live in Santa Cruz county so that should'nt be the case.

[1nput0utput]

I think the approach you take depends on which "era" you're trying to fit into. You're right: Modern recordings of trios and larger combos often paint a wide stereo image with the piano and drum overheads. The bass and horn solos are usually right in the center.

But if you're going for an "older" sound, have a listen to some Coltrane, Miles, or Grant Green recordings. In the 1950s and 1960s, making stereo recordings was possible, but not everyone had a stereo playback system. So the records were mixed with mono compatibility in mind: Basically, what will this sound like if it's played back on a mono system? A lot of times the solo instrument (whether its piano, sax, trumpet, etc.) was panned hard to one side of the stereo field and the rhythm section was panned hard to the opposite side. I recall some Dave Brubeck quartet recordings where the drums and bass are panned hard to one side, Paul Desmond's sax is on the opposite side, and Brubeck's piano is in the middle (with very little, if any, true stereo activity).

Another approach is attempting to create a realistic stereo image, as if you were experiencing the group playing live on stage. Drums and bass would be at or very close to the middle. The piano would be off to one side with a bit of stereo wideness. Horns and solo instruments could be pretty much anywhere in the stereo field. What it comes down to is the "picture" you're trying to paint with the mix.

Then, of course, there are infinite combinations of any of those ideas. It's all about what sounds good to you and the feeling you're trying to convey to the listener.

[robert mahoney]

Thanks for the input.
I wondered why so many old stereo recordings were panned so extremely to one side......MONO. Now it seems we are at the other extreme and I am curious as to why.
I only have a project studio(one room and a booth) so mic bleed limitations may apply,but I notice that clients seem to like the wide pan sound.
I prefer to duplicate the stage image, but I am sort of new at this so I appreciate the feedback.
Currently I seem to prefer panning piano bass left -40, pnoR-10,upright bass
centered, drum overheadR +30,overheadL +45,snare drum about+40 and I am not quite sure where to put the bass drum,but I usually try to match it with the snare drum. The drums are panned further to the right because they bleed the most into the other mics.
I wonder what fellow unicornians do in this situation and what the attraction to the wide stereo image is.
cheers!

[Dwetmaster]

For a centered feel, I like to keep the Bass Drum with the Upright/electric bass right in the middle

[oldguitars]

I really prefer the "pan it as you see it" method. Pan the ENTIRE instrument to the side that it is on as you view the ensemble. They don't have to be hard pans. Then, let the bleed give the sense of space.

Hearing jazz with the low notes of the piano on the L and the High on the right feels cheezy...

[Henry Robinett]

I like piano left hand (bass) hard left and right hand (high notes) about 12:30 or 1:00. Drums HH hard right and ride about 11:00 with the rest of the kit panned proportionate to itself. Floor tom about 10:30-ish. Bass somewhere up the middle.

But most people do it differently, meaning their own way, meaning anything can go. I used to pan drums drummers perspective until it just felt too un-natural to me. You, know the only person who hears it drummers perspective is the drummer. And the audience doesn't hear the piano in stereo, for the most part.

Edit -- I said I liked the left hand hard right. I meant hard LEFT. Sheesh.

[leigh]

Hi Robert,

I'm mixing a piano trio project right now. Here's the mixing board:


I'm going for the "classic" kind of sound and the trio is very pleased with how clear and distinct the instruments are. When I get the project done, I'll post a clip to the Showcase forum.

**Leigh

[robert mahoney]

Thanks Leigh. I'll look forward to hearing it.
Robert

[1nput0utput]

Hi Robert,

I'm mixing a piano trio project right now. Here's the mixing board:
http://www.leighdaniels.com/pub/triopan.jpg

I'm going for the "classic" kind of sound and the trio is very pleased with how clear and distinct the instruments are. When I get the project done, I'll post a clip to the Showcase forum.

**Leigh

Upon first glance, I thought, "Ugh, with both the overheads and the piano hard panned like that, they're going to be fighting each other at the extremes of the stereo image." Then I noticed your submixes, which make a lot more sense. I don't think I've tried that type of approach, but it makes sense because you can narrow the width of the submixes with a Trim plug-in and then place the instrument in the stereo field with the submix track's pan. I usually do it the "hard" way with the source tracks' pan controls and I use the submix tracks for processing groups of source tracks (overall EQ, dynamics control, etc.).

[oldguitars]

I am confused by this approach. By panning the stereo sub, aren't you actually just balancing in favor of the left or right mic feeding that bus? I would think that with this, you are just turning down the info that was picked up the mic opposite of the pan.

Hi Robert,

I'm mixing a piano trio project right now. Here's the mixing board:


I'm going for the "classic" kind of sound and the trio is very pleased with how clear and distinct the instruments are. When I get the project done, I'll post a clip to the Showcase forum.

**Leigh

[1nput0utput]

I am confused by this approach. By panning the stereo sub, aren't you actually just balancing in favor of the left or right mic feeding that bus? I would think that with this, you are just turning down the info that was picked up the mic opposite of the pan.

Hi Robert,

I'm mixing a piano trio project right now. Here's the mixing board:
http://www.leighdaniels.com/pub/triopan.jpg

I'm going for the "classic" kind of sound and the trio is very pleased with how clear and distinct the instruments are. When I get the project done, I'll post a clip to the Showcase forum.

**Leigh

That's true. When you adjust the pan controls for the submix tracks, you're adjusting the balance of the two signals at the input of each submix track. But that could be the sound that you like or want.