New Volume Surge Survey

Don T · Post by **Don T** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 2:54 pm

Hello,
With all the systems we have running, I am not aware of any volume bursts. There are only 2 systems I work on continually, doing projects, and they have not done it to me.

5 workstations are MIDI driving hardware through an express 128 usb, audio routed through an external mixer.
3 workstations use 424 and 24I/O interfaces. One of which also has a 2408 and a 24i. All are PPC.

We monitor through analog mixers for zero latency and therefore are not using the PCI console / 424 monitoring system so maybe that has something to do with the burst.

homebilly · Post by **homebilly** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:04 pm

dix wrote:
Homebilly, is your i/o and MIDI interface in your sig? It's not clear to me.

it is now

Dave Connor · Post by **Dave Connor** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 2:05 am

Went to 5.1.3./OSx 4.9 from 5.1.2/OSx 4.8 and it seems the MIDI sneeze is not occuring as often but still happens. Not sure about audio burst although I have had some nasty very loud bursts (like never before) when I updated to the latest audio driver with 5.1.2 (not sure what ver that was but now whatever the 5.1.3 upgrade driver loads is what I'm running.) I don't think I've had a nasty burst since I went to 5.1.3 (which really was a reverting back {I think} audio driver-wise.

I can't rememember if the super loud bursts had audio or just MIDI only. But I'll report if it happens again. Very un-nerving - very very loud!

Robbie_2327 · Post by **Robbie_2327** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:05 am

dix wrote:
Robbie_2327 wrote: Ok, so what is this volume issue?
Oye vey. This: http://www.motunation.com/forum/viewtop ... ight=surge

Thanks for bringing me up to speed. I don't know why I couldn't find the info when I did a search. I didn't read all 6 pages but I'm beging to wonder if somebody is paying Frodo to spend as much time as he does trouble shooting and then reporting on here

I even saw a post from Monkey Man talking about his experiences with the surge and he made no referrences to poo!

I haven't experienced the surge (fortunately). I've only had my system for a few months so I've only completed a handfull of projects on it so far. They have mostly been all MIDI and mainly all orchestral

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 4:35 am

Robbie_2327 wrote:... but I'm beging to wonder if somebody is paying Frodo to spend as much time as he does trouble shooting and then reporting on here

Pay? What's that?

"When I was younger, so much younger than today
I never needed anybody's help in any way.
But not these days are gone.."

~Lennon

"With every mistake we must surely be learning."

~Harrison

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:24 am

Robbie_2327 wrote:Hey isn't that picture from Monkey Man's family reunion?

I thought it was a Geico commercial.

OK, I'm not clear on this either. Is this a problem just with outboard MIDI hardware, or does it happen with VIs as well. I've had problems with Model 12, but the problem has been dropouts, not surges. (No MIDI interface hooked up at the time.)

Audio interface: Apogee Rosetta 800 and MOTU 828 (latest driver) - or - Rosetta by itself.

Phil

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:23 am

dix wrote:Monkeyman, your specs are clear, but are you having the volume surge issue?

I've not run DP in a while, but when last I did, the issue was there dix. Sorry for excluding the details earlier; I'd wrongfully assumed that only those experiencing the issue would be posting.

Frodo wrote:The curiosity with the 2408 driver is that there's an odd feature that requires one bank of the 2408 to be "mirrored" on Bank A. There is no "none" option. I confess that I never understood the mirroring thing.

I've always assumed that this was related to MOTU's F/W protocol's allowing for 24 I/O streams per device, Hobster. The few advantages to doing this that I can think of are practically esoteric and a stretch though.

Robbie_2327 wrote:I even saw a post from Monkey Man talking about his experiences with the surge and he made no referrences to poo!

Yup. It's serious business, this stuff.

[Monkey resumes his simian take on the classic "man in deep thought" pose...]

Phil O wrote:OK, I'm not clear on this either. Is this a problem just with outboard MIDI hardware, or does it happen with VIs as well.
Phil

It apparently happens in VI-only projects as well, Phil.

nadeama · Post by **nadeama** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 12:09 pm

Hi,

I'm having both the MIDI bombs and volume outbursts in DP 6. I've posted about this recently (Frodo may remember) and said that I would run some tests, but work got in the way and I didn't have time. However, this thread has motivated me to put work aside for today and take the time to run the tests.

Still, here is what I know so far, from having run similar tests one year ago:

- For me, the problem started with DP5. On my PowerMac G5, I could run a sequence in DP 5 where the bombs and outbursts were easily reproducible. It is an intermittent problem, but for some reason that sequence tends to display them very quickly. Running this sequence in DP 4.6, I would get flawless playback all the time. This is actually the most puzzling thing to me, that some users report experiencing this problem as early as DP 4.2. Anyway, I now have a Mac Pro, so I can't even use DP 4.6 anymore.

- In my case, it is not related exclusively to external MIDI devices or to internal VIs. I have tested and I get the problems using both. I've tried sequences with only MIDI tracks assigned to external devices and other sequences having only MIDI tracks assigned to internal VIs. They both displayed the problems.

- I don't have these problems with audio tracks, only MIDI tracks.

- I used to think this all might have something to do with the number and density of Miid CCs used in a track, but I'm really not sure anymore. I recently worked on a very simple sequence, with no MIDI CCs at all in any of the tracks, and I still got the volume outbursts. No MIDI bombs though...

So here's what I think at this point. I think we've all danced around this issue for long enough. I know it's time for me to see this fixed or move on to another DAW solution (the MIDI bombs are so severe for me that they often crash my entire MIDI farm). Although I had run all imaginable tests last year, I will run one last set of tests today, just as a last effort to make sure that the problem is not due to an external software/device outside of DP. I'll post my results here later in the day and ask for any advice on what else I could try. I hope people experiencing these same problems will chime in.

If we can't get to the bottom of this by ourselves (i.e. find out that these issues are caused by a particular configuration or software conflict, etc), then I will call MOTU up later this week (no more email cause it takes too long and sometimes after a while they stop replying). I will describe the problem, refer them to my previous techlinks about it, and ask them if they are really serious about wanting to fix this. If they seriously want to see this resolved, I will offer to bring them my "infected" computer myself and leave it with them for a couple of weeks. That's how much I need this to be fixed. I live about 5 hours from Boston, so I guess I'll just make a day of it. That way, they can't say that they've not been able to reproduce the problem.

If they say they don't want/need my machine, I'll wish them the best of luck with the future of DP and move on to Logic (urgh!)" I will of course report back here on their motivation to see this fixed once and for all.

I hope this sounds like a plan and I hope I hear from you guys when I report my tests results later today (or tomorrow at the latest).

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:22 pm

Yeah, the issue is an old one, to say the least. I was only hoping to be able to point to something consistent that might help expedite a solution, but I think MOTU must be well aware of the problem. If they are working on a solution then the source must have be as well-veiled as their recognition of the problem itself.

I'm doing little or nothing with DP6, but it's the little things that worry me. I opened a template containing audio tracks-- everything was empty-- no audio or VI's loaded at all. As soon as the audio went online there is a loud pop without hitting the space bar. It was as if the first metronome click or two had been preloaded but had nowhere else better to go. The pop itself is much louder than a singe metronome click, so at this point it's anyone's guess what's going on.

Monkey Man wrote:I've always assumed that this was related to MOTU's F/W protocol's allowing for 24 I/O streams per device, Hobster. The few advantages to doing this that I can think of are practically esoteric and a stretch though.

Exactly, Nicky. With some of the other issues I've seen with this mirroring problem, I can't shake the probability that the volume surges are related to audio leaks through mirroring. Several users have reported audio deactivating itself either sporadically or indefinitely. It just sounds like the audio drivers themselves are wrestling to hold their connections and may even be intermittently re-routing audio elsewhere.

It also points to another quirk I've seen where routing new I/Os don't work at all when first prompted, but will work after a few restarts or shutdowns.

When you say FW protocols, do you mean actual "firewire" or MOTU's own "audiowire"? Reason I ask is for the sake of PCI devices where that audiowire connection stands between the computer and the interface.

willheim · Post by **willheim** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 5:18 pm

i have had the issue as frodo describes in 5.13 and 6.0 - and i have event chasing turned on -

funny how it was better back in 4.___,

and also MIDI repsponse was tighter in the serial days.

it drives me nuts and is terrible for my ears.

MIDI volume splurts...

plus, i can't get DP 6 to chase pan, or even work CC#10 at all.

Tonio · Post by **Tonio** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:06 pm

nadeama wrote:Hi,

- For me, the problem started with DP5. On my PowerMac G5, I could run a sequence in DP 5 where the bombs and outbursts were easily reproducible. It is an intermittent problem, but for some reason that sequence tends to display them very quickly. Running this sequence in DP 4.6, I would get flawless playback all the time. This is actually the most puzzling thing to me, that some users report experiencing this problem as early as DP 4.2. Anyway, I now have a Mac Pro, so I can't even use DP 4.6 anymore.

.

hmmm.

I never had any volume bursts, MIDI nor Audio.

G4 Dp4.61 comingle DP6 1.08 driver
MAC PRO DP6. Current driver 1.2.2
T

nadeama · Post by **nadeama** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:54 pm

Just an update on my testing:

I've been having diffulty with installing a fresh copy of OS X 10.5 on a separate parttion. Actually, the install goes fine but then, 3 times out of 4, I can't reboot into the newly installed OS (the computer will hang on a grey screen and after several minutes will eventually automatically reboot into my main partition of OS X).

I've tried initializing my test partition and reinstalling Leopard 3 times today, and I always get the same problem. Seems like a weird bug.

Anyway, I've pretty much wasted my whole day with this and now it's getting late, so I will try again on wednesday (too much work tomorrow).

Very sorry for the delay...

odarellmc · Post by **odarellmc** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:59 pm

im getting the surges just using my macbook pros sound card, when rewired to reason 4. haven't noticed it with out it though.

bayswater · Post by **bayswater** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:52 pm

Neither problem here.

Looking at the threads on this topic, it looks like people who have the problem, have it across various OS versions, DP versions, interfaces, Macs, etc. And people who don't have the problem, don't have it across the same range of conditions. So would it make sense for both groups to post a series of sequences so members of the opposite group can test them? If a set of file that show the problem with reasonable consistency across both groups, these can be provided to MOTU.

Frodo · Post by **Frodo** » Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:14 pm

bayswater wrote:Neither problem here.

Looking at the threads on this topic, it looks like people who have the problem, have it across various OS versions, DP versions, interfaces, Macs, etc. And people who don't have the problem, don't have it across the same range of conditions. So would it make sense for both groups to post a series of sequences so members of the opposite group can test them? If a set of file that show the problem with reasonable consistency across both groups, these can be provided to MOTU.

The only commonalities are DP5 and DP6. That's what's scariest.

MOTUnation.com

New Volume Surge Survey

Re: New Volume Surge Survey