Is Aftertouch Critical in Playing VI Sounds?

[DMac]

...I just picked up a new controller keyboard for use with with DP. But horror of horrors, I just realized that it doesn't have aftertouch. I'm a pianist first and foremost, so touch is everything to me and 88-key controllers with hammer action don't seem to have aftertouch (after I did some looking at least not in my price range). Though it appears that organ style keyboards do.

Is this something that will be critical in playing VI instrument libraries, is aftertouch a big part of crafting the sound? The keyboard is velocity sensitive (it's the Kawai MP5 in case you're interested, best touch of any on display at good old Sam Ash).

I suppose I can always hook up my Yamaha SY85, but that would be a mess.

Thanks,

Dave

[bkshepard]

Yeah, many (most?) of the VIs use aftertouch to impart some sonic modification to their sounds.

[jstaczek]

Depends on the VI, but almost every VI I've seen allows you to map params to any continuous controller. In most cases, polyphonic aftertouch is too difficult to control anyway, so you only care about monophonic a/t. I've found that plugging in an expression pedal is a much more intuitive way to control that.

I'm a piano and organ player and aftertouch is just plain weird. My B-3 doesn't have it and neither does the Steinway. The MP5 has a killer action--you can't go wrong.

[spitfire31]

88-key controllers with hammer action don't seem to have aftertouch

While not a dedicated controller, the 88 key Yamaha S90 ES has aftertouch. The (fairly new and rather cheap) Studiologic VMK plus series also has AT.

www.studiologic.net/VMK-188plus.html

The Studiologic VMK is also available in a 76 key size, otherwise identical.

Best,

Joey

[HCMarkus]

If you can afford it, keep the 88 key for your piano and Rhodes work, and pick up a decent synth-action keyboard with aftertouch. For organ and synth work, the light keys make all the difference (just like the nice weighted keys make playing piano sounds a lot more fun) and the aftertouch is an intuitive way to add vibrato to leads and wind emulations. Assuming your current axe has the traditional mod and pitch wheels, consider one of the Roland USB controller keyboards, so you get the cool Roland paddle, which is my fave bender for lead guitar emulations. The Rolands have aftertouch and lots of faders and a cross-fader, too. About $300.

[daniel.sneed]

Studiologic VMK+ is a really fine piano touch with aftertouch.

But I agree with Markus : perhaps you'll need a lighter touch for some sounds.
Novation keys are fine for this. Musical feel IMHO and, of course, aftertouch and keyboard split. I would'nt part from my X-Station at any price.

If you go out for gigs, you'll reconsider carrying your full hammer keys more than once. Your back will thank you !

[DMac]

...thanks for all the advice. The Studiologic VMK+ would definitely have been my first choice based on all the reviews I've been reading but no one stocks it anywhere It's half the price of the Korg.

But based on all your comments, I think I will keep the Korg as my main keyboard, jstaczek is right, it does have great action, plus faders and knobs if I ever want to automate a few things. I'll use my Yamaha in the meantime as an expressive controller for things that require it and look at the Roland paddle controllers in the future.

I'm just kind of stuck with what is stocked in the stores nearby since there's no way I'll buy a keyboard for touch without trying it (though I'm really tempted with the VMK).

Thanks again.

[Shooshie]

I've never liked aftertouch, though I use it from time to time. I prefer to use a pedal unit, so I reprogram my sounds to use the pedals instead of aftertouch. Just my preference. Anyway, to answer your question: no. Aftertouch is not necessary, but it's often convenient.

Shooshie

[David Polich]

Aftertouch is not always used in factory programmed patches and for good reason. Anyone with a "harder" playing style can trigger aftertouch without necessarily wanting to do so. This results in users thinking something is "wrong" with the sound. As in "why does my Rhodes patch sound so wiggly when I hit the keys harder?"

I'm with Shooshie, I actually don't like aftertouch as a modulation source, and for my own programming needs I leave it out, preferring a ribbon controller, wheels, or expression pedals.

[mhschmieder]

We all seem to concur on this one .

Unfortunately, ribbon controllers aren't as common as I would like them to be. Some synths have them, but most don't. And precious few controllers have them -- though some do have very useful XY-pads.

I have the Studiologic VMK188plus, and I can tell you from running MIDI diagnostics tools that it is not very smooth and complete on the aftertouch score. I think this is because aftertouch is very difficult to control or to measure on a weighted action keybed.

As Dave and others said, aftertouch is not all that commonly implemented as a modulation source -- although some synths go hog wild in using it for everything.

I don't mind that it's on my VMK as I can shut it off. I do generally find weighted action easier for almost anything other than organ, but that's because I was brought up on acoustic piano. I get a lot of pain when playing synth keybeds.

But not all synth keybeds are created equal -- and this is ESPECIALLY true of aftertouch control. Most don't have it, period. And most of the rest implement it poorly.

There is general agreement in the industry, that there are only two fully trustworthy implementations of aftertouch (there are a few more recent improvements from some other vendors, including Roland, but I don't remember well enough which units are the exceptions to feel confident listing them here).

In the synth department, anything from Dave Smith Instruments will give you the smoothest aftertouch of anything available, as well as semi-weighted action that has a soft landing and enough heft to prevent wrist and finger pain for those more accustomed to pianos and weughted actions.

In the controller department, Novation is the go-to brand -- but stay away from their low end models (I forget the names, as they recently refurbished most of their lineup), as they don't use semi-weighted action and also either don't implement aftertouch or don't implement it properly.

Proper aftertouch implementation means that every value from 1 to 127 can be triggered. Most equipment can't, and some are so coarse they they only report one value out of every 24 to 33 steps! Luckily, this can be measured using free software MIDI monitoring tools.

But I agree that there are better ways to control modulation than aftertouch. I do like to use it on certain types of sounds though, after initial velocity, for expression. I just don't want to accidentally trigger it.

Kurzweil makes a standalone ribbon controller, which I once owned and which is as wide as a 37-key controller. I think it is only compatible with their keyboards, and it takes a telephone-style terminator jack. Dopefer also makes one, but their stuff is expensive in the USA, comes as kits that aren't always trivial to put together, and there are varying reports on reliability.

Korg has a new nano-series of controllers for under $50 each, which were announced recently but may not be to market yet. One is keys-only, another is knobs/sliders-only, and the third is sort of a linearly-arranged version of the padKontrol (with XY-pad; similar to a ribbon controller).

Note also with ribbon controllers that, aside from the multi-zone approach that Kurzweil took with their extra-long one, can sometimes be one dimensional, two dimensional, or even three dimensional. Most are x-axis only sensitivity; some add z-axis pressure sensitivity. For all I know, there are even some that add y-axis vertical back-and-forth sensitivity (similar to an XY-pad from Korg or Roland).

[HCMarkus]

Aftertouch is not always used in factory programmed patches and for good reason. Anyone with a "harder" playing style can trigger aftertouch without necessarily wanting to do so. This results in users thinking something is "wrong" with the sound. As in "why does my Rhodes patch sound so wiggly when I hit the keys harder?"

I'm with Shooshie, I actually don't like aftertouch as a modulation source, and for my own programming needs I leave it out, preferring a ribbon controller, wheels, or expression pedals.

Since my feet and left hand are typically occupied handling other tasks, like pitch bend and volume, I really like aftertough vibrato. However, I always thought keyboard manufacturers would do well to implement a ramp generator into aftertough triggering... a slight ramp into aftertouch would prevent the wiggles David references, and a slight ramp on release would avoid the "My Vibrato Suddenly Ceased" effect when playing patches with longer release times. Hey Dave... pass this idea along to Yamaha, would you?

[DMac]

...thanks for all the info, mhsch, I'm definitely bookmarking this for future reference. And wow! I went to the Dave Smith Instruments site and listened to the Prophet 8 videos. My goodness, that was the first time since I've been looking into this VI world that I've heard a synth that I really, really liked! Full, phat (as they say), and evolving. Man, I'm saving up my pennies for the next 10 years to get one a them

[Shooshie]

Come to think of it, I have two ribbon controllers, and I love 'em to death. The small one is about 3.5" long, and the large one is about 22" long. They both have their uses, and for the things you can do with each, there is simply no substitute. These things are wonderful. I reprogram some of my sounds to respond to them, or else I program the ribbon to send something useful to a certain VI and save it into a program on the Kurzweil 2600. (Dave Polich: do you ever play a tune on a ribbon using two hands? )

Gotta say it; these Kurzweil 2600's are darned good machines. Mine has an 88 key Fatar in it, and I absolutely love playing on it. Completely programmable as to touch, controllers, and so on. Responds to 64, 65, and 67. (or is sostenuto CC66?) Anyway, it will do all three pedals on a piano, and I often use them when I'm just playing piano.

Anyway... I guess this has gone beyond aftertouch, but yes... I prefer other controllers to aftertouch, but I'll use it when I need to.

Shooshie

[David Polich]

Aftertouch is not always used in factory programmed patches and for good reason. Anyone with a "harder" playing style can trigger aftertouch without necessarily wanting to do so. This results in users thinking something is "wrong" with the sound. As in "why does my Rhodes patch sound so wiggly when I hit the keys harder?"

I'm with Shooshie, I actually don't like aftertouch as a modulation source, and for my own programming needs I leave it out, preferring a ribbon controller, wheels, or expression pedals.

Since my feet and left hand are typically occupied handling other tasks, like pitch bend and volume, I really like aftertough vibrato. However, I always thought keyboard manufacturers would do well to implement a ramp generator into aftertough triggering... a slight ramp into aftertouch would prevent the wiggles David references, and a slight ramp on release would avoid the "My Vibrato Suddenly Ceased" effect when playing patches with longer release times. Hey Dave... pass this idea along to Yamaha, would you?

Good idea - will do.

[HCMarkus]

Aftertouch is not always used in factory programmed patches and for good reason. Anyone with a "harder" playing style can trigger aftertouch without necessarily wanting to do so. This results in users thinking something is "wrong" with the sound. As in "why does my Rhodes patch sound so wiggly when I hit the keys harder?"

I'm with Shooshie, I actually don't like aftertouch as a modulation source, and for my own programming needs I leave it out, preferring a ribbon controller, wheels, or expression pedals.

Since my feet and left hand are typically occupied handling other tasks, like pitch bend and volume, I really like aftertough vibrato. However, I always thought keyboard manufacturers would do well to implement a ramp generator into aftertough triggering... a slight ramp into aftertouch would prevent the wiggles David references, and a slight ramp on release would avoid the "My Vibrato Suddenly Ceased" effect when playing patches with longer release times. Hey Dave... pass this idea along to Yamaha, would you?

Good idea - will do.

Cool! Thanks.