Expanding the 828mk3 - How Far Can One Go?

[MegaPowerBoy]

I apologize if the title infers I have answers; quite the contrary, I'm afraid.

I have this idea where I could (in theory at this point) get rid of all my external mixing apparatus and mix entirely in software. In this environment, all of my gear would connect directly to an audio interface, each channel renamed to reflect the device connected, and exist solely in software, with no external submixing whatsoever.

Trouble is, I have a fair amount of gear, and of course it's growing all the time. I mean, I can always use more analog inputs (who doesn't?). Let's just say at this point I need a minimum of 20 hard, cold, physical (ie. analog) inputs (not mic pre's). I also need the ability to freely expand anytime I need more.

I currently use an eMu 1820m on a Windows XP system running Cubase, but I've been attracted for some time to the MOTU audio hardware due to its apparent flexibility when it comes to expansion; however I've had difficulty in tracking down enough information to make me take the plunge. I need to know this works before I "do or die".

I'm thinking of the 828mk3 because I really don't need more than the 2 mic pre's it comes with, and I know it can be daisy-chained.

I assume a maximum of two 8-channel ADAT devices such as the MOTU 8Pre, or the Behringer ADA8000 can be connected at any one time to the 828, what with its 16-channels of LightPipe, so what if (all the riches I don't have aside) I daisy-chained two 828mk3's together, plus whatever LightPipe devices I need to expand it -- would the WHOLE THING show up as one cohesive mass in CueMix the way I want it too? I reckon that's what I need to know. MOTU openly says that units can be daisy-chained, but are different units interchangeable? Is there a limit to how many units can be connected? And why, if the 8Pre can work as a sound card (at least I think it can) can I not just chain it to the 828 via firewire? And most of all, when all is said and done, will every channel be available for monitoring and control in CueMix?

Any answers to these questions, or suggestions apart from them is greatly appreciated!

[majdid]

i was also planning to get a 8pre to expand the 828 mk3 capabilities. basically i was planning to daisy chain it with the 828 and immediately having 8 extra ins in the cuemix, but after all the sync issues i heard about motu + motu gear, i was discouraged and went for two behringer ADA8000 setup via lightpipe. got some clicks first, then i connected BNC cables for word sync (828 master, ADA8000 slaves), works perfectly and integration into cuemix is very good, you can still handle the ADAT in/out as like it's a 828 phisical channels... until there is issues with connecting multiple motu stuff via firewire, i will use this setup (i already have a click/high pitched sound issue on the 828 mk3 probably due to my crappy RICOH FW chip, waiting for the next motu firmware/drivers update)

[MegaPowerBoy]

Yeah, I already run an ADA8000 LightPiped to my 1820m submixing all of my V-Drum's outputs and I love it. It was this that actually got me thinking how cool it would be if ALL of my gear could be connected in this way. When I'm in Cubase it's: Create a track, drop-down list of inputs, click 'Snare'; Create a track, drop-down list of inputs, click 'Kick', and so on. I want this degree of functionality for everything! But we need systems that can grow as we need it, without compromises in quality, and without selling out respective souls to afford it.

If anybody has built a system like this, no matter what gear you've used to achieve it, by all means share your secrets!

[jsr]

I use an E-MU 1212M (which can be had for a song these days), and use the 828MkII as a mixer that feeds into the S/PDIF on the 1212M. I then have a Behringer ADA8000 connected to the ADAT on the 1212M. In Cubase I use the E-MU DAS 2.1 drivers (very stable, and has Vista and 64-bit compatibility) and can can select between named inputs on the ADA8000 to which I have assigned channel strips in PatchMix.

If I needed even more physical analogue I/O I could attach another ADA8000 to the 828MkII's ADAT and submix down into the S/PDIF.

This is a very flexible setup and I also have the option to take the 828MkII out with the laptop and use it via Firewire (optionally expanded with the ADA8000 into the 828MkII's ADAT if required).

Bear in mind that this limits you to 48kHz max but I'm not a bat so everything is at 44.1kHz/24-bit. Sync is critical so be prepared to work this out, in the above setup I use the 1212M as master, to which the 828MkII slaves via S/PDIF, and the ADA8000 in turn slaves to the 828MkII. I'd rather use BNC but I can't locate the E-MU sync card anywhere.

[MegaPowerBoy]

Thanks jsr! That gives me an option I hadn't even considered - and I do have that sync card for my E-MU setup... This is certainly an advantage of the 828 to act as a standalone system.

However, I don't know if I care much for submixing (unless, you know, it's what I want to do, as in special situations). I'm submixing now with an external 8 bus analog mixer, and although it works great, I've never gotten along too well with keeping track of what's going where and when. Besides, just think of all the cabling one could eliminate by ditching the external mixer; then add to that the appreciable quality improvement.

My goal though, if possible (and I've been brought up to believe that anything is possible) is to have no external mixer, neither analog nor digital, and every channel named and available at once in any combination with no obligatory submixing, and ALL in the computer environment controlled by software -- though I'm not yet sure if I'll run into and ASIO shortcomings. Can you run out of ASIO channels?

I've also been checking out a couple of Lightpipe interfaces, like the Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe, and M-Adudio's ProFire Lightbridge to use with more ADA8000's. I definitely see possibilities...

[jsr]

The 828 is handy as a remote-controlled mixer ... I use a number of external devices that I need to switch between, such as tape, VCR, Minidisc, phono amp etc., so it's used for convenience rather than for submixing. For tracking, I use the inputs on the 1212M (the converters sound better to me), and the ADA8000 via the 1212M's ADAT gives me named I/O for external effects (usually guitar stomp boxes) and external MIDI instruments which then integrate nicely into Cubase -- I can mix down in realtime without having to bounce each MIDI track to audio first.

The motivation (after quality and flexibility) was laziness, really. I never have to re-cable anything, other than unplug a few stomp boxes now and again.

RME have a nice range of new PCIe interfaces with ADAT connectivity ....
Have a look: HDSPe AIO , or my personal favourite, the RayDAT

[MegaPowerBoy]

Thanks again jsr - you've helped to steer me in the right direction. I just so happened to be looking at the RME interfaces last night (I happened upon them by accident), and then I see you'd mentioned them. I was beginning to think that ADAT expansion was the only way; however, there are a number of issues with this that I have begun to see.

With ADAT, an admittedly aging technology, one is limited to lower sample rates to maximize channels - fine for now (for some), but as I see it, with improved audio formats and compression algorithms, sample rates must climb (or adopt an alternative technology such as Korg's 1-bit system). So even if a system is built around this, capable as it may be, I find that in the near future it becomes limiting. Nevertheless I find things moving in the right direction...

All this time I've been barking up the wrong technological tree, requesting from FireWire something it currently hasn't the bandwidth to do, namely, provide oodles of analog inputs and outputs at higher sample rates - and all at once if necessary. Perhaps FireWire 800 will change this, but that technology is in its relative infancy. We need something less antiquated than ADAT, more capable than FireWire (USB being out of the question at this point), and more tried & true than FireWire 800 - and yet avoid overly proprietary formats such as Yamaha's mLAN (I've no idea where that tech's gone, or if it's even still viable).

All this leads me to PCI; more expressly, PCIe. And after looking all over the place, at every brand name, and after finding all sorts of solutions and combinations that would, in theory, do the job, I end up right back at MOTU after all.

For me it appears the search has ended with the PCI-424, and with that the 24I/O definitely becomes a part of my studio - in time probably two of them, plus whatever else I need that's compatible. Expensive, yes. But what's price as long as you know a goal is at least attainable?

This system allows for massive expansion with sample rates up to 96kHz. That's more than enough for now. Mic and Hi/z inputs are created using external preamps; something most would rather do anyway.

And I definitely agree with jsr about not having to recable. This too is a big motivation of mine. And when I think of all the cable I'm gonna save by going this route, it just keeps getting better.

Several times in the past I've tried building patchbays. I've tried several different schemes; some traditional, and some of my own. But in the end I always ended up with major cable clutter because it just couldn't be made flexible enough. Not to mention the addition of an analog patchbay has the mathematical result of adding between two and three times the cables and connections if used with a mixing board, depending on whether a connection is set to pass through or patch through yet another (albeit short) cable. This was once done out of necessity, but it doesn't have to be this way any more!

I never searched this deep into audio interfaces before, but it's been a rewarding journey. Pretty much anything you can dream up, for virtually any purpose or application can be made to happen. And the greatest thing about digital is it can change as we change. As our requirements change over time, it too should flex to meet us no matter what our needs are.

I hope this helps somebody else who may be going in the same direction as I am, even though the original title of this post has now become somewhat misleading.