Lots of Basic Questions about DP and Macs :(

[DMac]

...I'm brand new here (and long winded, I apologize in advance), but it seems there is a very reasonable tone to all the discussions here (especially when it comes to Mac vs. PC discussions). That's unusual for online forums indeed! So thanks in advance.

Here's the background for my question. Several years again, I did some video scoring using Cakewalk PC-based Pro Audio 9 linked to six or seven external synths and top-end Emu samplers, all synced via a Motu unit so I could lock to and deliver on beta tape. I eventually went on to other career type things

But now I'm back and have the time to get back into scoring. Wow, have things changed. I quit just as the first gigasampler came out.

Here's my question. I am a hardcore PC guy, not a Mac guy but I am on the verge of buying a Mac Pro (just on the verge, mind you). But this is a fairly major decision. I really know my way around PCs. They're great, rock solid and you can get into their guts so to speak. On the other hand, I've worked in Mac shops and I never understood or much liked Macs at all, they crash just as much or more as PCs, I can barely find my way around in them and and if when something goes wrong, I can't get into them, it's as if they've been sealed off and resist every effort to troubleshoot the problem. Even more maddening, I've never met a Mac user who understand at all about what's 'under the hood' so to speak (In fact, the funniest thing about the shop I was in was that the most prominent piece of paper in everyone's cubicle were the instructions on how to turn off and restart their Mac when it froze -- that's that damn software on/off switch for you ).

But, I'll repeat, I'm very close to buying one of these beasts. Everything I've read is that DP is the hands-down best for scoring to video or picture.

And so what I'd hoping is if some of you who have lots more experience in the scoring business than I will ever have could let me know in real terms what to expect (usually I only hear, PCs suck, Macs are heaven on earth which I know from experience isn't true). I don't have any problem launching into the mac world, but I can tell you that if DP were available on the PC side, it would be a no-brainer for me. So please understand I'm not interested in the PC vs Mac argument, it's just that I don't know anything about them or how to solve issues that come up (not to mention that I've been browsing these boards for a couple of days, and my gosh, DP and Macs really sound like a mess

Kidding, kidding, honestly, but not really, I just don't know if I will be able to manage any the issues that might arise.

From a composing I am strictly MIDI oriented, I really don't forsee myself working with audio tracks much. Meaning, I compose music either on paper or play it in live with a click using established instruments or pre-designed patches. I've not done much sound design, and I don't really see myself spending hours in something like Absynth coming up with that perfect, perfect sound.

With all that in general, could I maybe ask some of you scoring pros (as opposed to song guys) to throw cast some advice my way.

1. Is DP really the best tool for scoring to video? It does seem like that if you don't us DP, you're viewed on as a bit dilletante.

2. Do you have any experience with people (if any) who score videos/film in something other than DP (if you could talk to Sonar in particular, that would be great since I started with Cakewalk those many years ago).

3. Could you perhaps quantify why DP is so good for scoring? For example, Sonar and other editors can import a video and sync to frame or SMPTE I think. Isn't that all you need?

4. And then lastly, I've read comments in many boards that what's important is finding a DAW that fits your workflow best. What the heck does that mean? I mean, for me, I opened open the program and start entering notes. Isn't that it? Is that workflow? But don't they all work that way? So could some of you maybe tell me what it means that DP fits your workflow best?

To close, I just hope I haven't been rude, or presumptious by asking all these questions. I don't mean to be. I just know that this forum is the first one that I've found that seems helpful, relaxed, honest, open and without it, I don't think I would have been as close to getting both DP and Mac.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

[Frodo]

4. And then lastly, I've read comments in many boards that what's important is finding a DAW that fits your workflow best. What the heck does that mean? I mean, for me, I opened open the program and start entering notes. Isn't that it? Is that workflow? But don't they all work that way? So could some of you maybe tell me what it means that DP fits your workflow best?

To close, I just hope I haven't been rude, or presumptious by asking all these questions. I don't mean to be. I just know that this forum is the first one that I've found that seems helpful, relaxed, honest, open and without it, I don't think I would have been as close to getting both DP and Mac.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

Hey Dave-- first off, welcome to U-nation!

There are guys who live and breathe film scoring and I can almost predict who will chime in to answer your questions.

But since you are nigh "on the verge" of moving into DP and Macs in general, I found your fourth question most intriguing.

Avoiding all the nine-dollar college words to describe workflow, let me just say this: workflow when using any app is measured by the number of times you ask the questions "where in the heck is the.....?" or "why in the heck can't I just...."? "why in the heck did they put that feature WAY over there where it's least useful?"

The fewer questions you ask like that, chances are the better the workflow. Different people work differently, so different DAWs appeal to different users.

Of course, you've come to a DP users forum, so most all of the responses will be in DP's favor for ease of use with one or two exceptions: DP6 was just released and everyone who has it is eagerly awaiting the first update. With that said, DP6 has attractive film scoring features, including HD frame rates and now Final Cut Pro XML compatibility-- in case anyone you work with uses FCP. And yes, you have attractive SMPTE sync capabilities at your fingertips.

Not all apps are the same after a certain point. Sure, the popular DAWs will have similar features, but it's highly personal how one feels these features are implemented from app to app.

While I love DP, I encourage you to visit an Apple Store in your area to try out Logic 8 just for the sake of comparison. That doesn't mean that I recommend Logic 8, but I do recommend taking a look at it just so that you can weigh its workflow against DPs.

There have been some good things said about Sonar, although I'm not a PC user.

As for Macs in general, the "apple" doesn't fall far from the tree. If you started in PC's, then you might still think that PC's are easier for you to use and to maintain. However, the ease of use and reliability of Macs make it very difficult for me to imagine starting over in any of the Windows operating systems. Things I've read about Vista alone have made me very afraid!

I use PCs at hotels sometimes, and simple things like emptying the cache and passwords, etc., after accessing e-mail is *comparatively* convoluted compared to the Mac. That's not a swipe at PCs-- or not intended to be, so my apologies if it seems that way. I just find most things on the Mac more elegant to use.

I will say this about Macs: it can be an "idiot box" where knowing its underbelly can be entirely avoided if you choose, but there are straightforward ways of accessing code to perform many complex tasks via the Terminal-- which is the utility one uses to enter lines of code to check the system, etc. You *can* get to the underbelly of the GUI if you want, and I find it much less intimidating than XP.

Anyway, I would just advise gathering as much hands-on trial experience with certain apps and with the Mac OS as you can. I truly believe that going from PC to Mac is much easier than going from Mac to PC-- AND you can run Windows on a Mac should you find yourself homesick at times!

Good luck.

[jr213]

You actually sound like I used to talk about being hardcore PC guy. I was a PC Paris user and only switched to Mac out of the desire to switch to DP. Your comments about Mac seem antiquated. OS9 and prior were about as stable or worse as Windows. But OSX just eats windows for breakfast. Another thing on that note (you asked for it ), I used to make a side income doing tech support and I assembled all my PCs, etc. When I switched to Mac, I no longer needed to know all that stuff and no longer desired too. Now I just get my work done. I still use PCs (and have along the way) and they just plain suck next to Macs unless you maintain them. And technically, if you know unix, you can get even more under-the-hood than you can on a windows box... so there.

As far as scoring for video goes, it's been a while since I've actually done it, but DP handled it beautifully and it was easy. Never done it in another program. All my colleagues who score for video use DP, except one Nuendo user. All I can say is I love DP, and you should too. (What else would you expect?) Cheers!

[Frodo]

I still use PCs (and have along the way) and they just plain suck next to Macs unless you maintain them.

Ah, and I was being diplomatic. There it is from a PC user!!

[kassonica]

Buy a mac and never look back

There are two kinds of computers in the world, apples and lemons.

[pencilina]

Hi Dave,

Welcome to the unicornation (my favorite procrastination place on the web) hangout of a lot of nice people.

1. Is DP really the best tool for scoring to video? It does seem like that if you don't us DP, you're viewed on as a bit dilletante.

Whatever... you'd probably get different opinions on a logic or sonor forum.... People use different tools, a lot of the time this boils down to which ones we've learned to use and what were used to. But, sometimes little things have a cumulative large impact. Eg., For years I drove little ford trucks by a twist fate and good luck of I recently got a Volvo. They both get you from A to B but the comfort level and little amenities actually end up making a big difference in your state of mind when you eventually arrive.

2. Do you have any experience with people (if any) who score videos/film in something other than DP (if you could talk to Sonar in particular, that would be great since I started with Cakewalk those many years ago).

Quite a few composers also like Logic.

3. Could you perhaps quantify why DP is so good for scoring? For example, Sonar and other editors can import a video and sync to frame or SMPTE I think. Isn't that all you need?

Sure, but when you want to re-use ideas, deal with changing cuts, tempos, different version of cues, streamers for movies in sessions.... a lot of DP's features come in handy. For me DP is the cats meow- scoring environment utopia. There's usually more then one solution for many problems but if I had to use something else I'd figure it out eventually.

4. And then lastly, I've read comments in many boards that what's important is finding a DAW that fits your workflow best. What the heck does that mean? I mean, for me, I opened open the program and start entering notes. Isn't that it? Is that workflow? But don't they all work that way? So could some of you maybe tell me what it means that DP fits your workflow best?

Again, I think this boils down to what we're used to. If I had to use logic I'd probably be like where the F*&ck is this or that and the same thing with a user from another sequencer switching to DP but we'd both probably find things we liked better in each program. Also, I think you'll experience the same thing switching to from PC to Mac initially but will probably eventually appreciate the elegance of the mac. Another example of workflow- someone who comes from a background of always working with notation will most likely prefer to use Sibelus or Finale (DP's notation abilities are not one of its strong points BTW).

I haven't used sonor but know its 64 bit. This is most relevant for single machine orchestral scoring because it can handle loading oodles of samples by being able to address large amounts of memory. With DP its a bit of juggling game using stand alone instances of samplers running simultaneously with DP. This is similar to having a multiple PC setup like most film and TV composers who have separate machines to play samples- which also might be a good solution if you think you're heading in that direction.

Also, a new version of DP just came out. Some people are having great luck with it and others are experiencing a myriad of problems. IMHO, once it gets its 64 bit legs its gonna be the bomb and I'm waiting for that which will probably come along with a mac upgrade and hopefully having a kick ass single computer setup. Like Frodo said, check out as many pieces of SW as you can. In the end whatever tool choose get you'll learn to use and hopefully appreciate most of the time (and maybe even love- like many of us DP heads here) to make your music.

Good luck and let us know how it works out.

[bralston]

So you know my computer experience here...I was primarily an early MAC guy (OS System 7)...who became a PC guy (built my own PC machines) ...then back to a MAC guy. I run a home recording studio with 2 MACs and 3 PCs that are all networked and used in some aspect of studio business. And, I am the one now that everyone I know calls for tech support. Some call even me the "genius bar" (a play on the MAC genius bars in their Apple stores) because I seem to be able to fix their MAC or PC computer problems better than when they actually go to the Apple genius bar. And yet...I am not "certified" to actually work at the Apple genius bar because I have never taken their stupid courses. (Not saying I am a computer genius...far from it...just that I am that guy that everyone calls and I usually fix it the first time. Hence the nick name. And it was all learned from experience with probably having the same problem myself at some point.

Anyway...

1....on the whole MAC vs PC thing. The differences are not really that much when you break them down any more...except the OS and user "experience" with the OS graphical user interface. "Under the hood" as you like to put it...a new Intel MAC is virtually identical in hardware as a Windows PC...and the MAC OS is really just Unix with a fancy graphical user interface. So...when you buy and run a new MAC...you are really buying a solid top of the line unix machine (with terminal access for executing hard core unix code and commands). How is that for fancy "PC" talk? You can also run Windows natively on an Intel MAC if you really need both OS's.

As far as scoring...DP is, in my opinion, the best platform for many reasons. Workflow is often referred to because everyone works in different ways. Some folks use nothing but MIDI instruments. Some folks record nothing but live instruments into audio and mix them. Some folks do a combination of both.

DP has, in my opinion, the best features for MIDI composition. You can pretty much do anything you want with MIDI, control hundreds of MIDI tracks at a time and record all of those into audio easily. The way the user interface in DP is laid out, it is customizable, so you can use separate windows for the different features (sequence editor, mixing board, audio monitoring, etc...), or one consolidated window that fills your screen with most everyone in view at once.

DP also has a set of tools for determining hit points and tempos that hit important markers in video...that no other DAW has. So for video scoring...it makes determining picture hit points a breeze. MOTU has also included a lot of new QuickTime features in the last few versions that will overlay streamers and vidual cues over the video. Something invaluable when recording with an orchestra or even using for ADR or Foley artists. The QT integration has gotten really good. They must have hired a knowledgeable QT programmer...because the stuff they are doing now is pretty complicated stuff that most programs never get right.

DP handles outboard gear (and sync to it) just as well as you remember before. The last few film scores I have done have all been mixed and recorded in DP...and then output to a Pro Tools rig for the film mix on the dub stage. Pro Tools is what the film was being mixed in. But the music was all done in DP...100%.

DP6, just released also now uses broadcast waves as its native format (or the older sdII or aiff)...so the audio tracks it records are compatible with most other DAWs on the market, including the industry standard Pro Tools.

There are so many other reasons of course. Every user has their reasons why they chose DP.

For me...I can not stand how Logic looks and I can't seem to find anything in it. So it slows me down. Yes it is powerful and perhaps a bit more processor efficient than DP...but I work slower when using it.

I never really got into Cubase. A few European friends of mine use it...but it just never appealed to me for some reason.

Pro Tools is the industry standard for audio recording and mixing...but its MIDI capabilities are like a toy. And since so much is done with MIDI now days...I needed a much stronger MIDI capable DAW. But I do still output to Pro Tools when I am done with my mixes if that is what a film needs for mixing.

So...DP became a natural choice for my primary DAW...despite that I also just liked working in it the best. It all just made sense after the initial learning curve. And, I can focus more on the creative process of what I am doing rather than fretting on how to make the program do it. Hence..."workflow".

I hope some of that helps you.

Welcome to the forum.

[Larry Mal]

With a Mac you'll be limited in upgrading to software, of course, RAM, audio and video cards, and external Firewire and USB gear. Really the only things you'd absolutely need to have flexibility in composition, anyway- you won't be upgrading the processors or motherboard is my point, like you sometimes can in the PC world, especially if you've been building your own PC's.

And while I admit to wanting to put in more processors in my G5 in the past, or at least having that sort of flexibility, the fact is the Mac Pro's are as powerful as you could ask for by today's standards and will get you as much film scoring done as you can want for a considerable amount of time.

I assume you are talking about the Mac Pro, not the iMac or the laptops. Both of which are still very fast- I was even impressed with my friends Mac Air, it was pretty fast and powerful for what limited things I did with it.

Anyway, the Mac Pro's are very fast now, I can't think of anything faster you could buy at the moment even if you wanted to assemble a faster machine out of raw components. Apple has clearly decided to have the most robust workstations, they seem to be aware of their popularity in audio and video if not the general business office world, and have designed their computers to be great for those purposes.

For that matter, compare a Mac Pro to the Creation Stations made and sold by Sweetwater, and you'll see that the Apple clearly outpaces the specifically designed computers developed by a major audio company at a cheaper price. Or go to Dell and try to spec a better machine, I couldn't get anything better at that price point- I don't think I got anything I thought was as good at all.

You may have better luck: you've built PC's and may know of how to get a better one than me, I've just skimmed the surface.

But my other points are the 32 GB RAM limit, which is very enticing to me as it means the computer is forward engineered to take advantage of 64 bit work, whenever that happens. So there will likely be no ceiling there for quite some time, and thus no real need to upgrade the motherboard anyway. But I think it would still be a cool option anyway, but not very necessary.

And the forthcoming Snow Leopard operating system is supposed to be optimized for speed work in general, who knows what that will be, but it's a safe bet it won't be just for faster internet skimming.

As far as Digital Performer, it's a great app, I've used it for some video work and found it to be great. I think with understanding and knowledge you could get similar things done with any of the major apps. But DP is a great one to settle on if you were inclined to settle on a go-to DAW- I had decided on Logic for this, but had to use DP for a class and think it's just great. I've begun to think that DP will be the future for me, who knows though. Either way, great application.

Anyway, get yourself a Mac Pro and Digital Performer, and I think you'll be a very happy person. Good luck, L

[martian]

i may be off the mark - but just say you didn't like macOS - you could just go back to using it with windows...

I started out on the PC ( actually I started out on the Atari - no wait it was actually a ZX spectrum )

anyway as someone every succinctly put it

get a mac - don't look back

( yes you can tweak more in windows - I'd rather not tweak at all tho)

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Hey DMac,

Well, you sort of answered your own question when you said you'd be doing a lot of MIDI. MIDI editing is where DP really blows every other app away. Editing, processing, and some "decent" but not quite ready for feature film VIs (virtual instruments).

Contrary to conventional wisdom, you do have a lot of control over you (soon to be) Mac and can customize more stuff than you might think. One thing you can't do, for example, is delete critical system files that would make the Mac inoperable. The OS won't let you do that. If you are determined to do so, there are workarounds but in general, it's pretty fool proof.

Once a program is running and is reasonably stable it doesn't matter what platform you;re on - it's really all about the software and again, DP is the choice of most of the folks on this site - so we're a little myopic. I agree with Frodo that you should check out Logic. For what it sounds like you;re doing, it might be just fine. Why spend $800 when you can spend $500? MANY people like Logic - but again, it's when you are actually running the software that counts, not what someone else thinks about it.

In the reel world of film scoring, a DAW it really more of a sketchpad anyway unless you're doing all MIDI and VIs. Full budget features use real orchestras and that means orchestrators and notation programs (Finale or Sibelius most likely). Sound designers probably use Pro Tools more than DP although I know a fair number of composer/designers (myself included) who do ALL our mixing in DP. Again, I think DP is much better than Logic for this and certainly better than Pro to... that other sound program (which is handicapped in the MIDI dept.)

As also noted above, you can easily run all your Windows stuff on your new MacPro - so if need be, use it as a Win/Mac (Mac/Dow?) machine. As far as DP, there is also a bit of a learning curve, but that's true of any full featured program and I think the same holds true of Logic.

So there you have it: Macs ad the best and DP is the best and you should go buy both

[DMac]

...hey all,

Thanks much for all the responses and great info! The various explanations about workflow was spot on. As I now understand it, it's basically what you're comfortable with and used to... and I can pretty much get used to anything. I was worried that it was some magic way of working that took a frighteningly blank page and transformed it into one filled with perfect notation with no work at all and somehow I was missing out. Rats. : )

And thanks for the brief rundown of the DP scoring features. It pretty much mirrors my experience, that most people who are scoring to picture use it and with pretty solid reasons.

The suggestion about going to an Apple store and taking a look at DP had never occurred to me. It's a great one too.

I'll always be a bigger PC than Mac fan just because of the closed fist Apple keeps on their product and its specs (weirdly ironic I always say). But a computer is just a tool, if it works, I'll use it. XP was a phenomenol OS, unbeatable. But I'm sure Mac OS is (now) just as good.

And truthfully, this board is really quite amazing. I kind of get the sense that if I'm stuck (like I still remember the horrific feeling of not knowing where my files were saved to, what? no Explorer? or where to find a list of installed program, where to click to start a program, how to eject a disk, etc., etc., etc.), I could get some pretty fast help here even if it wasn't specifically a DP question. 'Cause I am, in a sense an island. I don't really know anybody who uses a Mac.

At any rate, I think I will bite the bullet and go for it. I've got some savings that I've been holding back for a system plus a generous helping of VIs and maybe this weekend I'll put all my thoughts together and ask all your opinions on the collection.

Again, thanks for all the responses. I really do appreciate it!

[Frodo]

The suggestion about going to an Apple store and taking a look at DP had never occurred to me. It's a great one too.

Hey Dave-- if you go to an Apple Store, you'll probably find Logic 8 running on their machines-- not DP. Apple makes Logic 8, so it's highly improbable that you'd find a competing DAW running on an Apple Store display machine. You *can*, however, get a better sense of OSX-- and of course Logic as a DAW.

Make sure you talk to someone there with respect to your being a PC-to-Mac person. Many of your questions will get answered on the spot.

Where I live, there are music merchants within a 40-miles radius that have Macs running with all kinds of software for hands-on use. That's not the case everywhere, so it may take a little creative ingenuity to pin down someone using DP or to find a store or even a recording studio that would have it on their system.

[billf]

I never understood or much liked Macs at all, they crash just as much or more as PCs, I can barely find my way around in them and and if when something goes wrong, I can't get into them, it's as if they've been sealed off and resist every effort to troubleshoot the problem. Even more maddening, I've never met a Mac user who understand at all about what's 'under the hood' so to speak (In fact, the funniest thing about the shop I was in was that the most prominent piece of paper in everyone's cubicle were the instructions on how to turn off and restart their Mac when it froze -- that's that damn software on/off switch for you )

Welcome Dave,

My background is as a unix guy, so I was never part of the Windows vs. Macs battles back in the height of all that noise. That said, your comments sound like an outmoded view of Macs, mostly from the pre-OSX days when they did crash a lot and users didn't know or care about the core architecture. That has all changed. Modern Macs are built on Intel cpu's with OSX being a flavor of unix (Darwin), and are capable of running both OSX and Windows natively. With Parallels, you can boot Windows while running OSX and drag and drop between the two OS's and applications. You can also run X11 and all it's applications, even Linux if you want to go that techie.

As for your DP questions, DP is probably the best DAW on the market today. It has its flaws, as does everything, but I think you'll find that the modern Mac architecture is actually better than other PC makers because of the flexibility in being able to run OS's and applications.

[magicd]

DMac,
Welcome to the forum!

You'll find this board to be an first rate source of information, technique, opinions, etc.

I am a MOTU employee. My email address is magicd@motu.com If you ever need direct contact with MOTU, I am at your service.

Dave Roberts

[MIDI Life Crisis]

DMac,
Welcome to the forum!

You'll find this board to be an first rate source of information, technique, opinions, etc.

I am a MOTU employee. My email address is magicd@motu.com If you ever need direct contact with MOTU, I am at your service.

Dave Roberts

And your equivilent over at Logic or PTools is... ?

NONE! And lucky for us!!! Three cheers and a margarita for Dave!

So there you have it! DP is the best!