DP6 : Hobbit Meets With MOTU

[Robbie_2327]

Of course you can, Robbie; I survived thus far without said necessity too.
By far the most decent 'verbs I've ever owned resided on my old DP/4 and later DP/4+ (Ensoniq).
Then again, my Barfringer VeeVoid could well be the best I've owned in one or two areas.

FWIW, try the Control-click thing in Safari and other apps if you haven't already - you may be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks, I'll have to try that

Other than 3, I've been able to work around these. I am not sure what is happening to cause 3, cause it doesn't happen all the time. It is usable and I am using it. Again, this is all film audio post production work.

Well this does make me feel a little better. Maybe I'll reconsider once I recieve DP6. I'm not sure how long it will be considering I'm one of those 'free' upgrades.

[Kubi]

4) After pasting the same audio region like 13 times in an area, on playback I was getting some STRANGE digital distortion when it hit the last region, but the playback and cpu meter were like 10%. If I start farther back when listening (in the timeline) it was fine. Could be related to prerendering or something.

I actually had a (somewhat?) similar issue in DP5.13 that's possibly related?

The issue arises if I use time selection and copy/paste to copy and paste a section of a given soundbite. This creates a new soundbite that has a different length than the source soundbite but the same name, and I get random digital distortion on playback which I attributed to this odd naming behavior (different soundbite should have different name, otherwise you're asking for trouble, no...?)

A merge of the pasted soundbite, or an option-edge edit, or. anything else that changes the name of the newly created soundbite fixes it for me.

MOTU said they could reproduce it, but it was supposed to have been taken care of in DP6. Maybe it is, or maybe it will be in 6.xx

[Frodo]

hi Frodo-
interesting thread,thanks for taking the time and effort to approach MOTU with all of these questions,issues and requests.
I avoid .0 releases,the box (wow it's heavy)remains unopened, as it will be until 1 or 2 updates resolve most of these issues.
I applaud all of you brave souls who have taken the 6.0 plunge and expect to love DP6 when I finally put myself into the upgrade process,as it does look very promising!
thanks
KG

Yes, KG. I think DP6 looks very promising indeed. But it's a matter of common sense to hang onto 5.13 or earlier until the rough spots get sanded down in DP6 as so may have reported.

5) Zoomed in a lot makes DP run AMAZINGLY slow. Have NO clue why that is. Especially max zoom which I go to for extremely fine edits.

This was the case with 5.13 at least on PPC. The MacPro reduced that symptom considerably, but I tend to zoom out anyway if I'm going to be doing any serious longrun playback after editing. Clearly, zooming in takes more horsepower, and I don't know either just why it seems to take *so* much more. I'm a little surprised to hear about this in 6 only because of the Cocoa graphics update.

Thanks so much Frodo for taking the time and making the effort to get this information. It's great to see that MOTU is listening. I got 6 last week and it's installed on my "test" machine. (My MBP).

Again, it was a pleasure and not anything I can call an "effort"-- not like finding one's way backstage at a major rock concert! There was a measure of comfort just knowing that a MOTU rep was on the ground. I really appreciated the fact that he wasn't one of these guys who stared with half lids at your nose half asleep saying "mm-hm" to everything you said. This guy was pretty darn genuine and actually encouraged questions to be asked, especially in the one-on-one time we had.

[kinnylandrum]

I might add that I called MOTU this morning about my problem with the one file that played MIDI notes that weren't there. Ronan suggested I try loading the 5.13 chunk rather than opening it in 6. I thought I'd open the file first and see if it still exhibited the same problem, and by damn the problem has gone away! It plays back fine, no matter how much I stop it and rewind. I can't explain it, but it works fine even with "always play in real-time" on or off. So I didn't even try loading, maybe everything's OK. Oh well, I swear it really did happen, but I just thought I'd report.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

...Clearly, zooming in takes more horsepower, and I don't know either just why it seems to take *so* much more. I'm a little surprised to hear about this in 6 only because of the Cocoa graphics update.

Well you guys are better at the deep down internals of software than I ever was (aren't you? ) but I would expect performance to suffer in a highly zoomed in state. Redraws in any app are going to suffer similarly.

It may also be dependent on other factors, such as what you're zooming in on (MIDI vs. audio) and how many tracks of each you have. If you have, say, 6 tracks and you zoom into one, perhaps DP is expecting you to switch to another track at the same zoom level and is preparing that view in the background?

That is, of course, only a lame assumption on my part, but in my fantasy world, I always assume something like that is happening at the software level. Another example is Photoshop. It seems to take a very long time to redraw a zoomed in, hi res picture. This is particularly true using a plug in like "liquify" where so much happens at the cache level before saving to disk.

All that hyperbole said, like Frodo, I don't playback at an extreme zoom level except if I'm really bored and want to watch the cool graphics speed by (which are essentially unreadable by this simple human.)

[grimepoch]

I could understand if I was playing back something at this high zoom, but I was not. I was just trying to edit the end point of a region, or shift something over and it was SOO SLOW!!!! This is on a MacPro 4x2.66Ghz and 7 Gig of RAM.

They really need to address this in the future as doing REALLY fine edits is painfully SLOW.

[Frodo]

... Another example is Photoshop. It seems to take a very long time to redraw a zoomed in, hi res picture. This is particularly true using a plug in like "liquify" where so much happens at the cache level before saving to disk.

I've hesitated to mention Photoshop only because I thought there might be some undo comparisons involved-- but P-shop has been on my mind with respect to this-- and has been a major source of comparison even when I was using both DP and P-shop on my humble G4 867 single CPU. Back then, faster redraws were helped considerably by getting a better graphics card, but who wants to spend $XXX on a graphcis card designed to deal with the rigors of Tomb Rader just to zoom in on DP?

Maybe not all graphics are 100% Cocoa. It's clear that Logic doesn't suffer from this hiccup, but all we can do is tell MOTU was is acceptable and what is unacceptable if we're into DP for the longer haul. It's clearly a problem that ought not be happening SO noticeably.

[dannygold]

It used to be that you could adjust the "Q", see and hear the result..now, you can't. You have to guess/adjust and when you let go, the Q jumps and then adjusts...it doesnt work well in realtime..and it is really hard to grab the side width of the EQ graphic t manually adjust Q...

Sounds like maybe a prebuffering issue... try choosing "always run in realtime" in the plugin mini menu.

[csiaudio]

Time for a new beta team! Or maybe there isn't a beta team. It's hard to tell.

Ah I think it's quite evident that WE are the beta team!

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

WOW Frodo,
Thank you for taking the time to do all this! It helps us feel like we're in the loop. You are a gentleman and a scholar.
-Vincent

Questions submitted after 10AM Friday, July 18th PDT, may not have been included.

The responses capture the essence of the conversation by both the rep and the hobbit. Brevity for the sake of typing fatigue has been utilized here. (Please forgive any typos.)


1. volume burst issue?

This was something that was never officially recognized by MOTU as a problem that could be reproduced in DP5. User workarounds included saving the VI settings in the VI menu and reloading them or otherwise dumping the buffers, which could also be accomplished by opening and closing the Hardware Settings. AFAIK, no one has reported the bursts in DP6, but keep your eyes peeled...

2. noticeable updates to existing plugs such as eVerb

None known or revealable for the immediate future. The trend of adding new and better plugins will likely continue.

3. control implementation for their VI's and plugins, ie create continuous data in SE

COMMAND+ apostrophe will open a pref where a request for controllers can be made so that they are published in the SE. The idea of having all controllers for a VI instantly published or having a "publish all" button would be more flexible than being forced to add them one at a time.

4. v-rack able to recieve change parameter data-- you cannot send change data to the v-rack

Quite true for DP5. Still quite true for DP6. This particular feature request seemed to generate very special attention.

5. On only one sequence (so far), a short one which used a lot of VI tracks, I had a problem. When I opened this file (saved in 5.13), after I had played the file once and stopped in the middle, some MIDI VI tracks (not outboard MIDI tracks) played incorrectly, in completely wrong sections of the piece where they were not supposed to be playing. The only way out of it was to go back to 5.13 or to turn off pre-rendering. Why did this happen, and is it a bug? If they would like a copy of the file I would be glad to supply it, but it references a lot of VI tracks. (VI pre-rendering playing back and rendering incorrectly/ out of time)

This was a difficult question to get answered because without seeing the project or having some sense of the prefs. The rep genuinely seemed to not have experienced this problem himself, but suggested a full report be made directly to MOTU to assess what settings checked or unchecked might result in the symptoms.

6. TAB button unassignable in key commands

Still exploring this one-- stay tuned. In the meantime, check things like Universal Access and Keyboard And Mouse for key commands which may override those in DP.

7. How much of DP6 is now Cocoa? What parts?

Unknown. Clearly the graphics, but all that means is that we have some combo of Cocoa and Carbon still at play. An estimate in percentages was given but no quantity was guessed.

8. static faders selected lost when selecting the bar at the top
9. track side bar disappears when another app is running

Some aspects of these two questions may be due to OSX window behavior. Some of it may be due to burps with the way DP6 recalls window sets which has been a point of concern for some where the recalled window sets do not always open exactly as they were saved.

10. Is Buffy in the DP6 manual?

Nope.

11. Any plans for user controllable GUI color and prefs?

Yes, and all of the user mockups on U-nation have been observed. MOTU is "well aware" of the GUI sentiments. Just what will be done was not mentioned. I got the impression that there was much to consider where a bazillion opinions on the matter will need to be reconciled. It was agreed that a user customization panel would allow everyone to have it as they saw fit. What will ultimately be done remains unknown

12. MAS/AU wrapper still reporting problems. fix?

Different things, including third-party plugs, can impact on MAS/AU bundle behavior. Reports from users, including any resulting crash reports, will contribute to a worthy fix. But it seems that the workaround of swapping the MAS/AU bundle

13. How to best submit bug reports-- tech links sit for weeks or months

Just keep submitting it to them until the questions are answered. Call, if urgent. Rep says that ALL reports are read.

14. Upgrades planned to older plugins?

Not likely. See #2

15. Plugins and VIs GUI malfunctioning-- ie: UAD-1, Focusrite, etc.

Known problem. Fix in progress.

16. Is DP Spaces-aware?

Might have more to do with OSX-- uncertain

17. make editable soundbite volume up where soundbite start and end times are displayed in the sequence editor

Submit a detailed report with screen grab on this.

18. cosine fader algorithm

fascinating suggestion-- was taken to heart with deep interest

19. multi-layered markers
explained-- suggestion received with interest

20. realtime fades
interesting idea received with interest

21. solo, pan, and volume buttons in each track of SE (not automation)

same as 20, but received with an "oh"

22. QT to run independently of tempo maps
23. the ability to use a diversity of markers (hit points, streamers, etc.) for separate takes

This requests for these two will have to be explained more with several examples of why tehy would be useful. I did my best to explain-- but the urgency of the request may have been underestimated. The concept was of great interest, especially where separate takes were concerned. More detail, imho, will likely make the sale. It was recognized as a great suggestion which must have been inspired by some sort of sensible and practical necessity. They just want to know more.

24. QS updates
none known for now

25. Add solo button in the plugins window next to bypass

request accepted with great intrigue

26. white papers, more frequent RSS updates with software releases and announcements, reports of official bugs, bug fixes, better organized tech data base

RSS feeds, especially when new updates are posted. Would be a step in the right direction to keeping users posted.... and it's a wasted resource where tech links, e-mail, and phone calls could be freed up for more urgent needs

27. Mixer pan option for fade and blend

request accepted with great intrigue

28. Eucon, Novation, surface controller support status

No word yet.

29. Right-click functionality-- contextual menus-- when?

The rep ached for this, too-- this was among the more serious feature requests

30. How does DP6 reduce file corruptions?

Leaner, meaner code

Also--

Certain MAS plugins have not been updated yet to support offline bouncing. Since the AU protocols *have* been updated, MOTU suggests using the AU versions of Ethno, MachFive, etc. One question missed, my bad, was how this impacted on the bundled plugins. But at least the issue is known and is being addressed.

With this in mind, not all third-party plugins support offline bouncing, but the important thing is that DP6 *does* support this function.

end

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

I would love to respond to every post in kind, but things are moving fast a furiously here today!!

No, it wasn't all good news or even complete news. But I'm glad to know that some news is better than no news at all.

I was really concerned that the info wouldn't be of any help here. I mean, that *was* a very real possibility, but was a risk I felt was worth taking.

One other thing that might be considered: the rep mentioned that quite a few docs and files have been relocated in DP6. I don't have a complete directory list, but many of you who have DP6 might want to look into some of this. For example, some people mentioned finding two Digital Performer folders in their User Library>Preferences. From what I understand the DP Templates have been moved to this folder.

Now, a troubleshooting tip for an unrelated issue stressed that even emptying the trash was critical as DP would try to read the old file in the trash.

All this makes me wonder what other files have been moved, how many of them there are, what kind of mish-mesh might have inadvertently been created with mixing 5 and 6 on the same user account, and whether 5 and 6 have sense enough to reference the proper files *in all cases* where two identical files or folders co-exist.

I really don't know, but as long as problems remain there's no way to be 100% sure that such misreads are *not* contributing to the smallest mishaps even if we are told that they are not *supposed* to happen.

Give you an example--- none of the install CD-ROMs for any 2408 driver I've ever owned worked. I mean ALL of these install discs glitched on me. It clearly wasn't *supposed* to happen that way, but a famous person once said:

"There's an old...saying in Tennessee...I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says Fool me once...(3 second pause)... Shame on...(4 second pause)...Shame on you....(6 second pause)...Fool me...Can't get fooled again."

I can't tell you how accurately that sums up how I feel right now!

I wonder if an archive and install of OSX and then installing DP6 only would clear away some of this clutter?

[Frodo]

Ah I think it's quite evident that WE are the beta team!

Perhaps we are by default the "delta" team (or even the "alpha" team) as are all software consumers, but I'm not sure who it was that is being quoted there. I think that might have been pcm's quote, actually.

[Frodo]

I wonder if an archive and install of OSX and then installing DP6 only would clear away some of this clutter?

Not sure, RA. I think a more thorough uninstall of DP might be more effective. Someone who ran the DP uninstall also ran some other third-party utility and found another 30 files related to MOTU and DP. That sort of concerned me, although many have also said that haven't seen any particular problems having 5 and 6 on the same user account.

Maybe they are right and I'm just being overly cautious. But some of the chat pro or con-- particularly the con-- inspires me to err on the side of safety when the time comes.

Archiving and Installing is among the brawnier of fixes I used at the worst of times throughout most of 2007. Not sure if there's an Archive option and Install for 10.5.4. Once might have to revert to an earlier version of Leopard and then do the Combo Update to get back to 10.5.4.

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

I wonder if an archive and install of OSX and then installing DP6 only would clear away some of this clutter?

Not sure, RA. I think a more thorough uninstall of DP might be more effective. Someone who ran the DP uninstall also ran some other third-party utility and found another 30 files related to MOTU and DP. That sort of concerned me, although many have also said that haven't seen any particular problems having 5 and 6 on the same user account.

Maybe they are right and I'm just being overly cautious. But some of the chat pro or con-- particularly the con-- inspires me to err on the side of safety when the time comes.

Archiving and Installing is among the brawnier of fixes I used at the worst of times throughout most of 2007. Not sure if there's an Archive option and Install for 10.5.4. Once might have to revert to an earlier version of Leopard and then do the Combo Update to get back to 10.5.4.

Yep, that's what I did when I was trying to reduce my variables in the first couple days. I got out the old Leopard installer disk and then followed up with the 10.5.4 updater. It was fairly painless and the only plugs that complained were Symphonic Choirs wanting to be reauthorized.

So there's a DP5 uninstall? Hmmm

[Frodo]

So there's a DP5 uninstall? Hmmm

Yep. Put in your DP5 installer disc and go through all the steps as though you were going to do an install. But, once you see the EASY INSTALL sticky menu appear in the upper middle of that window, click there and choose UNINSTALL.