Have I hit the limit of my iMac?

[kevinmathie]

Have I hit the limit of my iMac? Do I need to upgrade to a Mac Pro?

Today, I got through half of a project and had to quit. It's really frustrating. The CPU kept pegging the red, I'd get error messages, and one time the whole computer locked up, forcing me to reboot.

I had about 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt 3, mostly using VSL samples that came with Kontakt, as well as East West's Symphonic Orchestra Gold. It's sort of the usual set-up that a lot of composers use: A track with tremolo violins, a track with arco violins, a track with marcato violins, a track with tremolo celli, a track with staccato celli, etc., etc., etc. All the while, I automated the mod wheel to take advantage of volume and intensity changes as the tracks played.

Anyway... I didn't even get to the woodwind section, nor the harp, or percussion. My iMac kept freaking out with just the piano, brass and strings.

Also, I don't know if this is normal or not, but as I watched the CPU bar in the "Audio Performance" window, I noticed that it was never constant, but would frequently spike. Is this normal?

What do you think? Are 15 instances of Kontakt 3 just too much for a 2 GHz Intel Core Duo iMac with 2 GB of RAM? Or is something else wrong with my set-up or my computer? Do I need to defragment a hard drive or something?

I have my samples stored on an external Firewire drive (since iMacs can have only one internal drive), so my sounds aren't taxing the main hard drive. But maybe they're taxing the CPU in another way?

I was hoping to limp along with my iMac for another year and save up to buy a Mac Pro with those 8 processors, a Gazillion Gigs of RAM, and a couple extra Terabyte hard drives! But, maybe I need to get a more sensible Mac Pro and expand it over time?

Your advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Kevin

[Frodo]

Have I hit the limit of my iMac? Do I need to upgrade to a Mac Pro?

...

I had about 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt 3, mostly using VSL samples that came with Kontakt, as well as East West's Symphonic Orchestra Gold.
What do you think? Are 15 instances of Kontakt 3 just too much for a 2 GHz Intel Core Duo iMac with 2 GB of RAM? Or is something else wrong with my set-up or my computer? Do I need to defragment a hard drive or something?

Hooooo-WEEEEE.

That's a lotta VI going on there.

The first approach would be to try more RAM. Not sure where you iMac maxes out in that regard. But yes. 15-16 instances of Kontakt and "how many" of EWQLSO on top of it; jeepers.

I have my samples stored on an external Firewire drive (since iMacs can have only one internal drive), so my sounds aren't taxing the main hard drive. But maybe they're taxing the CPU in another way?

Dunno, Kevin. One thing is that the FW drive *bus* is only 33Mhz. Being able to stream samples along different drive *buses* is a huge help where so much data simply clogs one drive bus like a Los Angeles freeway during a Friday evening commute.

I was hoping to limp along with my iMac for another year and save up to buy a Mac Pro with those 8 processors, a Gazillion Gigs of RAM, and a couple extra Terabyte hard drives! But, maybe I need to get a more sensible Mac Pro and expand it over time?

That's a very tough call. If money is tight, then getting a refurb 2007 model might be one way to compromise while still achieving nirvana. If you could find a 2008 model it would be even more of a step up from an iMac. That would at least afford you to put in 4GB or more of RAM right away and have access to faster eSATA buses-- which are roughly 75 times faster than FW buses (2008 models only). But even earlier models can be outfitted with PCIe expansion cards to allow for eSATA that run a speeds comparable to the FW busses of the 2008 models (since the 2008 models now use a SATA bus for FW where they didn't before).

There's also something to be said for just getting into a new machine now and upgrading gradually over the coming year-- but the big issue would still be RAM. I would still recommend getting 4GB RAM no matter what machine you got. 30+ VI instances would keep my MacPro Quad very busy.... and I mean busy!!

Your advice would be appreciated. Thanks!

Kevin

The thing about memory is that each app you run is capable of accessing up to 3.5-4GB of RAM. DP itself will house Kontakt and EWQLSO, but everything you run in DP will eat part of DP's 3.5-4GB RAM allowance. This 4GB is also shared with OSX. That means a lot of virtual memory is working overtime to deliver the samples on time.

Now, if you are really being "frugal" with 15-16 Kontakt instances and an equal measure of EWQLSO, I would really consider not only getting another machine but keeping your iMac as part of a network to house any overrun of the instances you need to run at once.

30 VI instances in 2GB RAM on a 33Mhz FW bus--- that's a lotta 'taters to peel.

[kevinmathie]

Thanks for the feedback, Frodo. To tell you the truth, that makes me feel a lot better to know that I'm just hitting the limits of my iMac, rather than it being something wrong with the computer.

As for the RAM, my iMac (one of the first MacIntels on the market) have a limit of only 2 GB. That's a big drawback. More than once that's limited me with some of these really large samples (thank goodness for the "purge" function on some VIs that lets me load only the specific notes that I play in my sequence!).

As per our discussion in the other section of this forum regarding separate instances versus different MIDI channels on only one instance of Kontakt: I've been experimenting with another piece I'm working on. I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but I think it's helping out a lot! For example, I put all the string articulations on just one instance of Kontakt (again, EW Symphonic Orchestra Gold and VSL samples), and haven't noticed near the jumps in CPU load this time around. I know this is an old trick for you DP users, but doing this in Logic Pro wasn't very intuitive, so this is a new revelation for me now that I'm returning to DP!

That approach has saved me 8 instances of Kontakt just for the violins and celli.

Of course, I have yet to add the brass, so we'll see what happens with that, but so far, I'm encouraged by using more MIDI channels, and fewer separate instances.

Of course, I'm just in the sequencing phase right now, and I'm not sure how I'm going to deal with all this in the mixing phase, since I don't have separate audio tracks for all these instruments. But, we'll see what happens. I guess I should have been a little less stingy -- maybe putting all the violin articulations in one folder, and all the celli articulations in another folder, etc., so that each section gets mixed/mastered separately.

Oh well. This is just a learning project I'm doing anyway. It's not something critical.

Well, I guess I better start doing some research on the cost of MacPros, shouldn't I? I really don't have a whole lot of money right now -- maybe about $1000 or $1200. But, maybe if this reorganization works -- where I don't have to have so many VI apps running at once -- I can still limp along until after some of my projects pay me in over the next few months.

Thanks for you input Frodo!
Kevin

[Frodo]

Hey Kev--

Generally, 2GB are fine for more-than modest projects involving audio. I'm convinced, however, that the numbers of VIs you're running would easily qualify for being more than "more-than" modest. You're doing pretty WELL, there on that system with those VIs-- WAY above what most would expect to get out of it. No, nothing wrong with the hardware at all.

Interesting and ironic about the multi VI instances vis a vis performance. The more I understand-- the less I understand! LOL, But it works.

Thoughts:

If your situation is not life-threatening now, hold off-- save your coin and get the best machine you can afford down the pike in the $2500-ish area and save some extra shrapnel for RAM.

If your general happiness and your ability to put food on the table hinges on having a better computer right now, buy the best refurb machine you can afford that will pay for itself in 3-6 months, RAM included. Then, keep on saving coin and set, say, early 2010 to make the leap to a new machine, if needed.

[Dave Bourke]

Kevin, you could also commit what you've done so far to audio and free up your iMac's resources to complete the piece.

Kind regards.

[kassonica]

You could raise buffers as well and make sure you have no other programs running either.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

I had about 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt 3, mostly using VSL samples that came with Kontakt, as well as East West's Symphonic Orchestra Gold.

The player holds 16 tracks, does it not? 15x15 is 225 instruments. It that what you're running? Or are you running 15 instantiations of the player with a couple of patches each?

If it is the former, then I second Frodo's comment:

Hooooo-WEEEEE.

That's a lotta VI going on there.

If your projects are that big, you might not only look at a new machine, but pressing your older machine into a VI player and running the VIs as MIDI devices out of the iMac.

[billf]

I had about 15 or 16 instances of Kontakt 3, mostly using VSL samples that came with Kontakt, as well as East West's Symphonic Orchestra Gold.

With that much VI activity, you're going to hit both the CPU and the RAM quite hard. I don't have Kontakt installed presently, but like MachFive, the multitimbral capability should allow one instance to run 16 voices or more, which should lighten that VI load you're running. Alternatively, if you're seriously doing that level of orchestral work, a Mac Pro is better suited IMHO.

[HCMarkus]

What Dave B said.

[kevinmathie]

The player holds 16 tracks, does it not? 15x15 is 225 instruments. It that what you're running? Or are you running 15 instantiations of the player with a couple of patches each?[/b]

If your projects are that big, you might not only look at a new machine, but pressing your older machine into a VI player and running the VIs as MIDI devices out of the iMac.

It's the latter....

OK, I'm really embarrassed by this, but having worked in Logic Pro the past couple years, I've been running only one instrument per instance. So, in track 1, say, I have an instance of Kontakt running just one piano. Then, in track 2, I have another instance of Kontakt running just the tremolo violins, 3rd instance, running arco violins, 4th instance running staccato violins, etc., etc.

I didn't know -- and, frankly, didn't realize how easy it was to do (in Digital Performer) -- how to run multiple instruments on just one instance of Kontakt.

It's really been bogging my CPU down, with not a lot to show for it. So, it's been a revelation for me to be able to create 5 or 6 or 8 tracks of different articulations on just one instance of Kontakt.

What I've been doing has been incredibly inefficient, and I've been scratching my head thinking, "Man! I can't even come close to what some of these other composers are doing! I must need a new, more powerful computer or something. Maybe all these composers have lots more money than I do and are able to buy more powerful machines than I can!"

So, what you're seeing in my posts is a real-time video of the lights turning on in my brain.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

The player holds 16 tracks, does it not? 15x15 is 225 instruments. It that what you're running? Or are you running 15 instantiations of the player with a couple of patches each?[/b]

If your projects are that big, you might not only look at a new machine, but pressing your older machine into a VI player and running the VIs as MIDI devices out of the iMac.

It's the latter....

OK, I'm really embarrassed by this

No need to repent, my friend. THAT is why this place exists (and is so popular.) Some VIs require a separate instantiation for every patch. THAT is dumb (IMO).

Now I hope this doesn't mean you're not going to get than new Mac!

Not to get too touchy-feely about it, but life is about learning. Finding your mistakes and fixing them is great. Admitting you were "wrong" and realizing it is a blessing!

It's when you stubbornly adhere to clearly "wrong" ideas and continue to expect good results is... well, frankly, that defines CRAZY!

So you'll have to reload your patches into one or two instantiations and reroute your tracks to match. Heck of lot better than getting a new machine to find the problem still exists.

And THANK YOU for telling us what happened. Not only are you going to be better off, but some time in the future, some musician will read this and thank you!