Premium Drum Miking Design idea

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:25 am

I'm in research mode right now on a project that I've been working on for awhile.....and that is premium drum miking, mics designed solely and specifically for drums but are NOT the variety of things like the Audix or Beyer kits. While there's nothing wrong with these, I'm referring to going against the MD421's but in a much smaller foot-print, but a great sound.

What would you think about a modular system that consists of a rack-mounted that takes the need for mic-pres out of the equation offering internal transformers and pres as well as a direct connection to the mic. The problem with premium drum miking is first and foremost, the size of the dang mics! What if it were simply just a capsule that clamped onto the rim of the drum with a small cable that wired into this box, that box then supplied the pre-amp gain and fed-out via a DB25 connector of 8-channels off to your audio i/o?

The idea is to have a dual-element kick mic, a top and bottom snare mic and up to (4) tom mics.... If this could all be done for $3,000, but remember you would NOT need to buy dedicated pres to do it. Considering I have $9,000 in micpres just for the drums, that seems quite reasonable you think?

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:09 am

Are you thinking of incorporating digital preamps in these puppies, Brad?

It strikes me that the "new" D-class breakthroughs in terms of efficiency and size of amps must've spilled down to something you could make use of by now.

Phil O · Post by **Phil O** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:19 am

Hmm. You lost me when you said, "clamps to the drum." I think the reason we spend so much time positioning mic stands is that clamp-on solutions just don't sound as good. What we really need is an innovative mic stand design, just for drums!

Phil

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:32 am

Then again, Phil, if the mics could somehow be physically isolated sufficiently, as well as perhaps digitally tuned (internal software) to compensate for or indeed eliminate colouration, I doubt anyone would complain when the success of this endeavour is weighed against the convenience factor.

oldguitars · Post by **oldguitars** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:06 am

i prefer to use different mics for different things on different sessions. This sounds a little "one trick pony" for me...

also, clip mics are not my ideal choice and you would have a hard time convincing me to NOT use my API's on drums...

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:18 am

Thanks for the feedback..... the idea is to have a pre-amp that sounds like an API, RED, NEVE, etc. Possibly a design could be passive with TA4F connections and the breakout box feeds XLR out that could then go to a pre of choice. As to clamps, I'm thinking of a very high quality clamp for space reasons. Sonically, there is NO difference between mounted or stands when you know how to use gates properly

I've been talking to a few designers, and trying to move through a few design ideas and issues. It's something I'd love to have for live, studio would be good too.

slicerecords · Post by **slicerecords** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:01 am

great idea for live use......I wouldn't go for in the studio. Not enough room for variety.

Drab Noyls · Post by **Drab Noyls** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 12:48 pm

slicerecords wrote:great idea for live use......I wouldn't go for in the studio. Not enough room for variety.

I agree. Also, any scheme that presupposes the use of gates so as to sound like the thing you're replacing.....well, ugh. Why not just trigger samples?

Tritonemusic · Post by **Tritonemusic** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:34 pm

Drab Noyls wrote:
slicerecords wrote:great idea for live use......I wouldn't go for in the studio. Not enough room for variety.

I agree. Also, any scheme that presupposes the use of gates so as to sound like the thing you're replacing.....well, ugh. Why not just trigger samples?

Most of us here use Digital Performer. It has some of the best automation capabilities I've ever seen in a DAW. Why on Earth would you want to use gates in this day and age (unless you're talking about live P.A. applications)?
In the studio, however, absolutely not. I think that nowadays, "using a gate properly" is using no gate at all. After all, you DO want to preserve the ambience in your drum recordings, don't you? John Bonham comes to mind...

As mentioned before, if you're going to use gates, you may as well just trigger samples.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:30 pm

For some music, gates may not be desired....for others, it is and a must. Ambience is one thing, low-level rumble is another....and automation has nothing to do with either.

Drab Noyls · Post by **Drab Noyls** » Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:11 pm

BradLyons wrote:For some music, gates may not be desired....for others, it is and a must. Ambience is one thing, low-level rumble is another....and automation has nothing to do with either.

Please explain. Low level rumble cannot be gated out, can it? It's still there when the gate opens, messing up the the signal the mic was intended to capture. Intelligent use of a high pass filter would serve you better in these instances. Yes, you can used a gate to eliminate rumble while the mic'ed source is inactive. But when the gate opens, the offending signal is still there.

Yes, in a live situation, automation is useless. When mixing recorded audio (this is the general recording forum), I have to ask: why diddle with a gate when mute and fader automation is much more predictable, controllable, and most importantly, repeatable?

Finally, the only music that requires gates is a certain variety of techno from the mid 80s, and not for the reasons you claim. Some live situations may demand use of a gate when micing technique is inadequate, or the environment presents challenges that are beyond the engineer's abilities to surmount. The music could care less about whether the toms are gated..... I submit any Led Zeppelin recording for your perusal and consideration.

alexkemp · Post by **alexkemp** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:33 pm

Brad

Love your thinking in terms of dedicated, small footprint drum mics on the high-end. I wonder, though, as far as built-in pre-amps.... if you're selling to a high-end market, won't they have a bunch of pre's that they spent a lot of cash on and love? And wouldn't they rather introduce only one new variable during a session-- meaning a new mic, or a new pre, but not both? When I'm cutting drums on a clients dime I always try to do one thing new (or in a new way), and the rest do what I know will work...

On the other hand, a set of drum oriented pre's... hmmm. very interesting. A little 8 pack... kik and snare, two toms pres, hat (mono) room (mono) stereo OH's? With different topolgies so they'd mix together without acumulating the same sound (like when you track all through one console's pre's). Very interesting also! But this could be marketed towards project room/studio B level clients.

Just some thoughts!

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 2:28 pm

The more I think of this...the more I think it really is better-aimed for live sound, like the old Zildjian cymbal miking system. Studio guys are so particular in tone that such an idea wouldn't sell well to the guy that has a good collection of pres.

As to the "low level rumble" when you have all of your drum tracks playing, you hear the harmonics through the tom mics from the toms themselves. Personally, I don't like this sound and that is why I use gates. With GOOD gates, it's much faster to deal with than editing them. While automation works fine, I don't like to ride faders that way. Live, I don't care...studio, I do. I also like to isolate the toms and snare, especially the snare. When the tom is playing, that resonance from the kick doesn't matter as you don't hear it, but when there are no tom fills...it's there.

I don't go by examples of Led Zeppelin, that's not my style of music. I don't like the couple of mics and use 50-million pounds of compression. I like a great tone of what I can do with gear today, to shape and mold the sound. I come from the progressive rock world where I might use as many as 30-drums on a single kit! There are times where just a few mics is all I need, and other sessions where I need MORE. And for the record, I am a child of the 80's so maybe that's why

I gate for control, not for effect.

basstian · Post by **basstian** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:53 am

I think I will have to chome in, about this not being the greatest Idea for us stubborn studio guy, but I really love the Idea of 8 to 10 drum dedicated pre amps in a box with different color for kick, snare, toms, hh, room and, OH adding a pretty good a/d converter will make

8 - 10 XLR ins for your favourite mics and a digital out adat or whatever to your interface.

Whatr about that