Is DP for me?

[monkey man]

Fantastic!
So, Fernando, I've taught you 2 words now:
Varmint and vitriol.

Sí, Señor!
For some reason, I LOVE those words

That's easily explained, Fernando:
You learned 'em from a monkey.

[nk_e]

Would be a helluva package: DP + Mach5 + MX4 + Symphonic + Ethno + Electric Keys + Some Loop Collection for say $695. The other instruments would still be available of course. I guess it's kind of the Ableton pricing model.

That would make DP the absolute market leader.

Problem though: Even at $695 people would STILL focus on the price difference and I don't think DP could sell that bundle at $499...

That's too cheap!!
And if someone complained about that price, after getting so much stuff, that person would be cheap too.
They could easily sell all that at least at 1.5K. It would sell a lot, and it would put the final nail on L's coffin
They could give the option to purchase DP as it is now, or with all those instruments maybe.

Depends on the customer you are after I suppose.

I think L8 is picking up a lot of the youngish "new kids on the block" with that pricing as well as old (er I mean "seasoned") folks like myself. Is that the kind of customer MOTU wants?

An aside: My guess (really completely unfounded speculation) is that a good percentage of the folks who buy L8 Studio based on the price/goodies ratio primarily eventually drop back to LIVE, GB or Reason. But there is that core of serious young producers who don't do that and are in the game to stay.* Those are the folks MOTU needs to grab -- and making DP attractive to them is important.

It's important to grow the base. Don't want to be the Oldsmobile or Buick of sequencers. (Cue the inevitable BMW counter comparisons! )

* - You read about these folks all the time in the Brit mags. I always see L8, LIVE, REASON in their studio (or FL or Sonar if they are on the PC). Never DP. (Yes I know it's less popular across the pond but that is part of my point.)

[tyronehowe]

I think L8 is picking up a lot of the youngish "new kids on the block" with that pricing as well as old (er I mean "seasoned") folks like myself.

It sure seems like it. Really comes over that way in the magazines as well. There is now a LOT of Logic stuff in there. 12 to 18 months ago – hardly any; it was all Cubase and Live. Apple made a very smart move with Logic 8 – 3 smart moves really: 1) Bundled all the apps and Jam packs, 2) Dropped the price considerably and 3) ditched the dongle.

Is that the kind of customer MOTU wants?

If I was MOTU, I’d want any kind of customer and as many as possible!

An aside: My guess (really completely unfounded speculation) is that a good percentage of the folks who buy L8 Studio based on the price/goodies ratio primarily eventually drop back to LIVE, GB or Reason. But there is that core of serious young producers who don't do that and are in the game to stay.* Those are the folks MOTU needs to grab -- and making DP attractive to them is important.

Hard to say. I get the impression that a lot of people were considering Logic in the past, and the release of cheap, dongle-free, VI packed 8 made it irresistible. I think the other major point is that it’s made and supported by Apple (although I use the word “supported” in a very broad sense there!). It is very, very unlikely to go away in the future. People feel confident and secure in choosing Logic. Steinberg, MOTU, Cakewalk, Ableton don’t have that luxury.

You read about these folks all the time in the Brit mags. I always see L8, LIVE, REASON in their studio (or FL or Sonar if they are on the PC). Never DP. (Yes I know it's less popular across the pond but that is part of my point.)

I never see DP mentioned in Computer Music, Music Tech or Future Music. Only in SOS. I wonder which mags the youngish "new kids on the block" read?!

[IAMLFO]

This is a great discussion, I wish I hadn't been too busy on the road these past two days to contribute.

There is certainly a price / value issue that MOTU is going to have to figure out. I don't think they, or we armchair quarterbacks, have the answer to what the right balance is. I do think it is safe to say they currently do not have the balance correct. If you look at other packages they offer more `bang for the buck'. Great workflow is important, but how much value does it add to a product? I don't know for sure, but my guess is it is not as much as say, including Mach 5.

I've only been using DP for about 8 months. I started looking at it due to the enthusiasm of DPDan who I know from the GPO forum. Otherwise it never would have been on my radar. Why? Because it was too niche. For some reason DP comes off as an off the beaten path DAW. I don't know why. Things like support for all DAWs (and DP coming in the future) was something I saw several times while looking at DP. Most people are going to take the `safe' route, pure and simple.

Someone mentioned in a post above that Logic is picking up the youngish crowd and the `seasoned' crowd and then asks if that is what DP wants. The answer is obvious - hell yes! The younger crowd are the musicians of the future and the older crowd are people with money to spend on DP. Is there such thing as a customer that a DAW company (or any other company for that matter) would not want? I bring this up because it seems that MOTU is turning a blind eye to the younger crowd. Some may say Logic now ships with a bunch of bloat - VIs, loops, etc. I use Logic and that `bloat' has zero effect on system performance, offers media that I otherwise would not have and is invisible unless I want to use it.

To me that is a very good story that MOTU should learn from. The value in a DAW used to be mainly features. Because of rapid development this has shifted to content. MOTU has taken some steps in this direction and they probably have a `lets wait and see' marketing strategy to see if the new bundle is enough to increase market share. My guess is that it is not. What I see is marketing pointed towards current DP users, not marketing for expanding their base. MOTU would probably argue this. I would be interested to hear their point of view because I just don't see it. Maybe I'm missing something, it would not be the first time.

There was another thread where a newcomer was asking if DP was for him. He was into dance music and due to this I recommended he purchase Logic (or Reason or Ableton Live) instead. This was not a slam on DP, but rather advice based on how I see the two products. If I were a MOTU marketing guy this would have me worried. I would want my product to be as accessible to orchestrators and dance music creators alike.

I think I am bordering on rambling, hopefully I'm adding something worthwhile to the discussion. I really enjoy the perspectives of others, it is great to read threads and realize that my point of view may need some adjusting.

-Kevin

[FMiguelez]

... MOTU would probably argue this. I would be interested to hear their point of view because I just don't see it.

I wouldn't hold my breath for this

I would want my product to be as accessible to orchestrators and dance music creators alike.

I know what you mean, but OTOH, there's also a risk of such a DAW to become "apprentice of everything, master of nothing". Especially because what is needed for orchestral music is quite different than the needs for dance music.

But content (loops, VIs, etc.) without a streamlined workflow is even more useless, IMO. I see it here all the time. All these kids going for Logic think that just because they got Logic it will make them amazing musicians overnight. They fail to realize that they must learn how to use the app, then the VIs and plug ins, then mixing, etc. Once they do, they realize that they can't create meaningful music without studying music, or practicing, or whatever.
Even worse, most end up getting frustrated and become canned music recyclers (using loops exclusively). Then they proudly show "their creations", forgetting the fact that, at best, they are good sound-block organizers

[Larry Mal]

I have to agree- what is the point of selling a great workflow exactly? If all you know is Logic, then you'll think it has a good workflow if you are able to use it, and not look around for anything else.

Take myself: after a fun long time with Ableton, and a horrible brief period where I was considering what would be my permanent, learn all the shortcuts DAW, Apple drops the price of Logic, and I became aware that it was in the budget, and that was that, right?

No. Due to a MIDI sequencing class I was once again to pick up Digital Performer, and became aware of its great workflow- seriously, and its stability as well. It's to the point now where its my go to app for quick work. But when I want to compose, it's Logic, because the MOTU instruments bundled with DP are, well, I used the phrase earlier, "reluctantly" added to it and they reflect that. And for mixing it comes close- but in the end, Space Designer is necessary for me (to have, if not always to use) so I'm more than likely to spend time in Logic anyway.

We'll see how DP 6 makes me feel about that, and when I get more VI's- but who knows? Logic has a good electric piano, am I likely to buy one? It has a good convolution reverb- I know I wasn't going to buy one at that point. Maybe one day I'll step up to the awesome Altiverb, but I'll have to be pretty rich.

My overall point is that Digital Performer really should think about bundling in some quality sounds to it, and hope for sales on their hardware and just a customer wanting to stay in the MOTU family to offset that, would be my opinion, if anyone wants it.

[kassonica]

... MOTU would probably argue this. I would be interested to hear their point of view because I just don't see it.

I wouldn't hold my breath for this

I would want my product to be as accessible to orchestrators and dance music creators alike.

I know what you mean, but OTOH, there's also a risk of such a DAW to become "apprentice of everything, master of nothing". Especially because what is needed for orchestral music is quite different than the needs for dance music.

But content (loops, VIs, etc.) without a streamlined workflow is even more useless, IMO. I see it here all the time. All these kids going for Logic think that just because they got Logic it will make them amazing musicians overnight. They fail to realize that they must learn how to use the app, then the VIs. Once they do, they realize that they can't create meaningful music without studying music, or practicing, or whatever.
Even worse, most end up getting frustrated and become canned music recyclers. Then they proudly show "their creations", forgetting the fact that, at best, they are good sound-block organizers

Great post

Sound block organizers great name for a band. Indeed I feel that Logic is a master of nothing in some ways whereas DP has a mastery over editing, and ease of use. Pro tools is it's only competitor IMHO.

In this day and age people expect so much from the software they forget as FMiguelez correctly points out to practice, study and learn to play.

Good discussion.

[billf]

Even worse, most end up getting frustrated and become canned music recyclers (using loops exclusively). Then they proudly show "their creations", forgetting the fact that, at best, they are good sound-block organizers

Here's a counter-argument, not that I necessarily agree with it, but one could make the case that the future of popular music is largely sound block based. It's gotten to the point where I hear unadulterated Apple Loops in commercials and shows. These days, pop music is less about guitars and drums and more about samples and beats. Add to the list, but it seems like the idea of "recording" is largely becoming taking existing music samples, creating a bed, and recording some vocals.

Look at the success of Live, it's less a DAW and more a sound block organizer, and wildly popular.

Counter-counter-arguments are welcome and encouraged.

[FMiguelez]

.

Sadly, I too hear out-of-the-box loops in TV commercials ALL the time.
And I think this brings other unintended issues, such as, because of the cheap costs of doing music that way, then a lot of the smaller Ad Agencies and Production Houses, reflect that in their payments to musicians.

Cheap canned music = low payments to "creators".

The worst is that this trend is starting to contaminate the bigger Agencies, so they expect original music for much less money now...

Besides this, at the end, this will bite us in the arse sooner or later. The quality of music will suffer greatly, and it will be seen as just some kind of bed to put under VO.
I've even heard a few creatives from small agencies doing the music themselves with GB, for example

I hope good original music will ALWYAS be needed. And hopefully this will separate the men from the boys. Or more correctly stated, the can-music-recyclers from the original and talented composers.

[FMiguelez]

.

The way I see things, is that the quality of the music exposed to the masses will go down-hill (more and more every time). Then, as it ALWAYS happens with every trend, it will get worst, snow-balling until it becomes ridiculous and unlistenable. THEN, after a while, it will little by little go towards quality again (after people realize for themselves the need for good, decent music).

Something similar is just faintly beginning to happen in the loudness-war. I think we already reached the bottom there. These trends are just so typical....errr.... human?

Regarding music, I just hope that we don't hit the bottom too soon. At least not in our lifetimes.

[grouse]

These days, pop music is less about guitars and drums and more about samples and beats. Add to the list, but it seems like the idea of "recording" is largely becoming taking existing music samples, creating a bed, and recording some vocals.

Look at the success of Live, it's less a DAW and more a sound block organizer, and wildly popular.

Counter-counter-arguments are welcome and encouraged.

I don't really agree, although it depends how you define "pop" music. if you're talking about "pop" as in disposable "pop" in the singles charts then you're definitely right!
i'm sure the ad agencies, some tv shows etc. will go for cheaper, pre-existing looped stuff in certain situations but, as far as music goes, i think guitars and drums will always rule the show!
it's got to the stage where all genres of music influence each other so rock bands use dance loops and dance acts go with live instruments and then both are influenced by hip-hop production etc. etc.
but with people hedging the future of music in live concerts, people playing instruments will always be the most vital aspect.
i think it's a good time right now. with DAW technology the options are limitless but everyone still wants a good song.
and people will always want to go to see bass, drums, guitar singer type bands. and those bands will record......

getting back to DP, i live in ireland now and nobody has heard of
digital performer here. i find myself trying to explain it here all the time!
and as someone mentioned before it IS a lot of syllables.
it is not sold, to my knowledge, anywhere in ireland. people use pro-tools and logic mainly.
electronic musician magazine (i don't get it these days) always had loads of stuff on DP. they were big supporters of the program it seemed.
and of course it would be awesome to have all that stuff bundled.
i for a one am a little disappointed by the updates in DP 6.

[IAMLFO]

Something else that these posts helped bubble to the top of my head...

I do a fair amount of chamber / orchestra arranging. I've watched a trend of more classical type composers using Finale, Sibelius, etc. to compose pieces that not only are perfectly scribed but provide near flawless MIDI and audio renderings of the music. It is typical to hear users say they do 90% of their work in, say, Finale and then use a DAW like DP to tweak and mix.

Perhaps MOTU should consider this and go after that particular niche. I'm not saying they should create a competing product within DP. (QuickScribe is not a competitor in my mind. It provides 25% of what Finale does.) Rather, they should look into highly integrating one or more composition applications into DP. How cool would it be if you had seamless integration? That could potentially expand their market.

-LFO

[FMiguelez]

Perhaps MOTU should consider this and go after that particular niche. I'm not saying they should create a competing product within DP. (QuickScribe is not a competitor in my mind. It provides 25% of what Finale does.) Rather, they should look into highly integrating one or more composition applications into DP. How cool would it be if you had seamless integration? That could potentially expand their market.

As far as I AM concerned, if MOTU gave us that, it would be the best DAW in the universe.
I couldn't care less for bundled VIs or plugs. A DECENT score editor is what I need, and what would make my workflow so much better.
I've BEGGED for this.

Having said that, I mean no disrespect for people who think it is very important for them to have the bundled stuff. I understand different people have different needs.

The solution is easy: MOTU, GIVE US ALL OF THAT

[bkshepard]

We're not picky, we just want it all!!!

[bayswater]

[quote="FMiguelez"].

Sadly, I too hear out-of-the-box samples in TV commercials ALL the time.
/quote]
But this is not new is it? Just a more of the same. We used to hear unedited M1 presets in lots of TV and movies.