Is DP for me?

[monkey man]

It is if you want it to be
And it has the best forum on the net

... and quantitatively at least, this forum has the most wildlife.
I've skillfully avoided qualitative judgements thereof though.

- Logic is more efficient than DP in terms of how much processing power the VI's take, so if you have a borderline system like I do (i.e. not an 8-core with 6 gigs of RAM or something), that could be a strong argument for Logic.

DP6 will likely change this equation somewhat, Larry.

You know, this (predictably) brings me back to my only beef with DP, and one that, if nailed by MOTU, would see a tide of defection thereto IMHO:
Amp/cab sims, match EQ and denoising would round the plug set out nicely, and a decent VI set that included a multi-synthesis bread-and-butter plug and a more capable sampler would complete the makeover.
Just a small bunch of plugs - everything else is already there.

I understand your hesitation; I await the former additions (some would say naively) because I can't afford to be ripped off for 3rd party vapourware.
The plan at this stage is to hold out on VI/plug purchases and use my hardware MIDI gear mixed live in DP's mixer; as MOTU introduces more and better VIs to DP I'd gradually work them into my projects until the day comes where said equipment is redundant.

Even if I had to start over (which I'm kinda doing anyway), I'd still want to wait for MOTU's offerings rather than use Logic, such is my love for DP.
AFAICT, DP is to DAWs as Apple's been to computers - it inspires a rare enthusiasm and loyalty from its users.

[Larry Mal]

I might be in a position to be of some help because I decided on Logic as my go to DAW, after fighting (and losing) with Pro Tools, and using such things as Ableton (which I still really, really like). '

But my time with Logic was to be brief, as I started taking classes that made me use DP again, which I had not used since DP 4.6. At that time I found it to be a very confusing program, but since I've been working with it since then I can't imagine what I found hard- when I want to get some work done fast, it's Digital Performer all the way. It is in fact laid out fairly intuitively and once you get used to it, it's hard to do without.

Here are some thoughts I have about the pros and cons of each:

Logic has a great deal of instruments with it, and the Ultrabeat is not able to be dismissed easily. It's a great drum programmer, and in my opinion as good as what one can buy. There are some other cool things in Logic, the Fender Rhodes is nice, especially if one doesn't use it all that much to justify buying a third party version, and this is also true with the clavinet. Very cool additions to Logic.

The other synths in Logic seem to have been worked on to a great degree, but I've got to say I find them to be uninspiring. I actually am planning on using them later this week to see if there is anything I have missed. But when one gets used to the third party sounds, with all their tweaking and effects built in to the patches themselves, then it's hard to go to a bare bones instrument like one would find stock in a DAW. I'm not saying that one couldn't get a great sound out of the synths in Logic- or Digital Performer, even though those synths are somewhat of a reluctant addition to the package in my opinion and sound like it- but I am saying that if you are used to booting up say, Absynth, and hearing lush and well tailored sounds come out right from the get go, and are maybe a little lazy about it like myself, then you won't really fall in love with the synths in Logic. And certainly not DP.

Logic does come with all those Apple Loops and the Foley effects: don't discount the value of these- maybe not for dance tunes, but they come in handy. Anyway it's good to have them, and not to have had to pay much extra for them.

The other Garage band (think of the symphonic things) ported sounds are completely unusable in what one would think of as a professional way.

And the EXS sampler is a very good sampler, much better than the DP version that is bundled with the program. To me, since I don't do a whole lot with either of them, I could take it or leave it, but it may make a difference to some.

Logic has the convolution reverb built in, and that's actually what led me to the program. I'm very excited to think that DP 6 will have one, that will very much level the playing field.

In fact, the competitive nature of the DAW platforms has led to what is frankly excellence in most of the major versions, and Logic 8 seemingly inspired Digital Performer to really rise to the challenge with version 6 having a convolution reverb of its own and what should be a great electric piano. And the other effects in DP are very good, the Masterworks are all of very high quality and I really enjoy using them.

For MIDI I have to give it to Digital Performer, and I also seem to like working with video it better. And I find it to be a little more intuitive to use in some ways, although some things like having to select the output of each track is not what I would call "intuitive", but it may be that there is a template or method that would not require this, and that brings me to a point I should make very clear:

I'm not an expert on either of these programs.

So there you have it, these are just some thought either way. Honestly, I didn't think I would come to love Digital Performer as much as I have, and I'm going to wait for version 6 before I make a decision on which will be my main platform. The fact is both of these are fantastic programs, one may be a little better for someone due to ease of work and budgetary reasons, but they are both something that the music industry can be proud of.

[monkey man]

In fact, the competitive nature of the DAW platforms has led to what is frankly excellence in most of the major versions, and Logic 8 seemingly inspired Digital Performer to really rise to the challenge with version 6 having a convolution reverb of its own and what should be a great electric piano.

Sold separately I'm afraid, Larry.

Including it would've helped level the playing field IMHO, and were the rest of MOTU's VIs offered, well, MOTU would come up trumps; deciding would be a no-brainer, IMHO.

[Larry Mal]

Was I incorrect about the digital piano? I've really been looking forward to that. Well, anyway, the Proverb will be quite a good addition. And without a doubt, I'll make my way to DP6, and I forgot to mention the video scoring develpments. I'd always heard it was great for that, and it is, and seemingly getting better.

And you are right: if there was the MOTU line of VI's included, well, there would be no stopping DP, that's for sure.

What are the instruments in DP 6 then? I saw the Proton, the Nanosampler, the Model 12 and there are a couple of others that I don't recognize by sight. Are there any new ones here?

http://www.motu.com/products/software/d ... fullscreen

[monkey man]

Nothing new I'm afraid.
The full list:

Proton
Modulo
nanosampler
PolySynth
BassLine
Model12

Glad you agree about the inclusion of MOTU's commercial VIs.
I wish they'd just bite the bullet and be done with it; it'd certainly trump the other sequencers and redeem MOTU from the tag of being history's most "consistently behind" DAW.

[Larry Mal]

Yeah, getting Ethnoinstrument would in itself be a slam dunk. And you know, despite DP's small size, you do tend to get some advantages with that as well- this forum is much, much better than the Logic forums overall. It's smaller core audience of diehard users makes it much more educational overall, let's say pound for pound. Not that I want to badmouth the Logic guys: but there are a lot of absolute new users, and God bless them, but it's not the most enlightening reading.

And with this forum- in my opinion the best that I have seen of all of them- you can get a solid answer to a question in about 5 minutes, in my experience. Other posters have been telling the original poster about the extra bonus resource of this, and it is considerable.

[Eleventh Hour Sound]

Pat Travers said: "Go with what you know." That's why I love DP

[monkey man]

Agreed on all counts, Larry.

I'd forgotten about Ethno.
If that and MachV were included... oh man!

[larryf]

If that and MachV were included... oh man!

I don't see how that could possibly be done, from an economics point of view. But wow, that would truly be a game changer, and get motu out of the incremental war of attrition currently going on with the other name DAWs. Actually, for MOTU it's a war of attrition, for Apple it's the sheer joy of battle.

[billf]

Logic has a great deal of instruments with it, and the Ultrabeat is not able to be dismissed easily. It's a great drum programmer, and in my opinion as good as what one can buy. There are some other cool things in Logic, the Fender Rhodes is nice, especially if one doesn't use it all that much to justify buying a third party version, and this is also true with the clavinet. Very cool additions to Logic.

In terms of bundled VI's, stock Logic is far better than stock DP. However, it's also the thing that makes Logic feel a bit claustrophobic to me. When I use Logic, I find myself using 3rd party VI's (a lot of them from MOTU), which have the added advantage of also working in DP.

So, if you plan to collaborate with others, the 3rd party VI scenario is far more flexible, and as such, renders DP and Logic back to an equal playing field.

Logic does come with all those Apple Loops and the Foley effects: don't discount the value of these- maybe not for dance tunes, but they come in handy. Anyway it's good to have them, and not to have had to pay much extra for them.

The other Garage band (think of the symphonic things) ported sounds are completely unusable in what one would think of as a professional way.

And the EXS sampler is a very good sampler, much better than the DP version that is bundled with the program. To me, since I don't do a whole lot with either of them, I could take it or leave it, but it may make a difference to some.

Logic has the convolution reverb built in, and that's actually what led me to the program. I'm very excited to think that DP 6 will have one, that will very much level the playing field.

Re: Apple Loops... the problem is the loops are showing up everywhere. The only loops I use from the Apple Loops are single hits or the MIDI loops which I totally tweak to what I need. My advice is be really careful with using Apple Loops as they have the problem of being too popular.

In fact, the competitive nature of the DAW platforms has led to what is frankly excellence in most of the major versions, and Logic 8 seemingly inspired Digital Performer to really rise to the challenge with version 6 having a convolution reverb of its own and what should be a great electric piano. And the other effects in DP are very good, the Masterworks are all of very high quality and I really enjoy using them.

DP's bundled FX plugs are largely serviceable. Masterworks EQ is very good, and what's promised in DP6 looks good. For mastering, neither Logic or DP is perfect, and eventually you'll want to consider some good third party mastering tools.

As for Electric Piano, with MOTU that is a modular VI called Electric Keys, and is not bundled with DP6 AFAIK.

For MIDI I have to give it to Digital Performer, and I also seem to like working with video it better. And I find it to be a little more intuitive to use in some ways, although some things like having to select the output of each track is not what I would call "intuitive", but it may be that there is a template or method that would not require this,

Both programs handle MIDI quite well, as they both originated as MIDI only sequencers. But for me where DP excels is in mixing. I love being able to create and call up different mixes from the same file. Doing so in Logic is messy, really messy IMHO. So if you're considering mixing and mastering, DP is much more elegant in this area.

[Kubi]

A couple of quick additions, as most of your questions seem to have been answered...: DP has indeed full-fledged pitch correction, Logic doesn't. And Model 12 (comes with DP) has some great 909-type sounds; in fact I just used it on a radio spot for just that purpose.

There's a number of reasons why I find DP to be superior to Logic, i.e. multiple sequences per project, unlimited savable mixes, absolutely limitless routing options, audio editing features that are second to none and matched only by ProTools, the already mentioned pitch correction, etc. And if you use DP5.13 on either 10.4.11 or 10.5.3 and have a well-maintained and -equipped G5 or Intel, it's ridiculously stable.

[maxpatch]

Soundmaster,

You've had some great advice - especially regarding the wisdom of of sticking with Garageband or going with Logic because: (a) you're used to GB and (b) Logic's content and approach seems to be a good fit with the kind of music you're making. See what a well-informed, balanced forum this is!

Let's face it - you can't go wrong. DP, Logic, ProTools, Cubase, Sonar, Reason, Live.... these are all brilliant tools. It's like, "Do I buy the Ferrari or the Lamborghini?" Every day all over the planet musicians are making a living using all this stuff to create incredible music that moves us all.

That said, just like buying a car, it probably comes down to the little details - like, how do the seats feel? Are the controls laid out in a way that feels familiar and comfortable? I'm sure you get the analogy!

Like many people here, I use DP, Logic, PT and a whole host of other software all the time. However, there are a few little things that make me feel at home with DP in a way I don't with other applications. For instance, I like the DP approach of having several Sequences (Chunks) within one project. It's great for dealing with multiple film cues or - as I've been doing today - a whole class of student compositions within the single file. I like the way DP handles folders - hide/reveal triangles like the Mac finder. I often use Mix Mode to create alternative mixes and try out different stuff - again, all within the same project. Polar is a hidden gem, well worth the price of admission! I like being able to decide what I want to put in the sidebars, not being dictated to. I like the meter bridge, too. I just like the way DP looks on the screen. Doesn't sound like anything terribly significant but I figure if I'm going be stuck in front of a computer for a good part of my working life, I might as well enjoy the view!

None of these things are particularly astounding, they're not technologies to set the pulse racing but they make my life easier and a bit more creative.

The best thing you can do is spend some time in a music store (or at a friend's place) in front of these applications and put them through their paces. Use them to create some music. Ask yourself, which software channels your creativity in a seamless flow and which sends you scurrying to the manual every time you need to do something slightly different?

Like I said, you can't really go wrong.

Good luck!

Max

[soundmaster]

Thankyou everyone for your insights and opinions. This is an incredibly friendly and helpful forum.
I very much appreciate your replys and would like to let you know where i'm at with regards to all this.
As you know, i am a newby to software DAWs. Garageband is near useless to me now because it is not full featured and it lacks the tools i need to move on for a professional result.
Personally i think the synths in Logic are so so.The ES1 is nice but basic.The ES2 is thin and digital sounding(so typical of a lot of softsynths) and the Sculpture synth is useless for the type of music i make.
I'm not very much into loops as i like to program my own beats.

My main concern is that i don't want to spend a lot of money buying third party stuff, which can get very expensive.
I know there will never be a perfect solution, but i am looking for the one that is close to perfect and contains as much plugs and instruments from the outset.Quality is my primary concern, or else that would mean having to spend more to get the third party alternatives.
I think it sounds like DP has a brilliant workflow but as stated in here, it obviously is not arrayed with top notch useable synths of the highest order; i am not happy with the quality of the ones that come with Logic so i decided to look elsewhere.
I didn't want to work on a PC but nonetheless i took a look at Sonar7 and was blown away by what it has to offer and have decided to go with it.(I'm not looking forward to working with windows, not to mention that i'm computer illeterate), but Sonar looked to good to refuse as a comprehensive allround quality package.
If you don't mind, out of courtesy i would like to explain why i have decided to go with Sonar.
- It is a 64 bit application, compatible with Vista64 edition, which apparently gives massive headroom, more dynamic range, a better non digital sounding result and more processor efficiency
- It comes with top notch 64bit phase linear mastering plugins
- I listened to the included synths and every one of them sounds absolutely awesome
- The Roland V-vocal processor is a dream come true for messing with vocals or artificially getting a pro result
- It comes with many sounds(and loops) included, from sample programs to synth presets
- I hear the audio editing is right up there for quick and fancy editing, Pro Tools style
- It has many top quality effects that will help a novice like me get the result i need to take on the big guns
- Free VST synths abound on the net
- Sonar comes with so much included that i won't have to spend extra money
- Classic Roland TR909 drumkits come with the included Roland groovesynth due to Cakewalks collaboration with Roland in recent years

Thankyou everyone for trying to help a newbie enter the world of DAWS, and i wish you all the best for the future. "Live long and prosper!" Take care...

[FMiguelez]

.

Before you leave us, I would like to suggest something to you. Respectfully.

You've said that you are just starting out. But remember. Just because a DAW has "Top notch" quality plugs, and yadda, yadda, yadda, doesn't mean a thing as long as you don't learn how to properly use them.
Try not to get too caught up in that impressive but futile "tech talk" about headroom, some DAWs sounding better than other ones, etc.

For instance:

- It is a 64 bit application, compatible with Vista64 edition, which apparently gives massive headroom, more dynamic range, a better non digital sounding result and more processor efficiency

Do you know what all that REALLY means, and how that applies to you?
I can see 3 things wrong with the above statement.

Having said that, I think Sonar is a good choice anyway (other than the fact that you must use a PC), but if you don't mind that, you'll be happy, and hopefully be able to produce great sounding music.

Good luck.

[Aramis]

Right into our teeth -)

Aramis

Thankyou everyone for your insights and opinions. This is an incredibly friendly and helpful forum.
I very much appreciate your replys and would like to let you know where i'm at with regards to all this.
As you know, i am a newby to software DAWs. Garageband is near useless to me now because it is not full featured and it lacks the tools i need to move on for a professional result.
Personally i think the synths in Logic are so so.The ES1 is nice but basic.The ES2 is thin and digital sounding(so typical of a lot of softsynths) and the Sculpture synth is useless for the type of music i make.
I'm not very much into loops as i like to program my own beats.

My main concern is that i don't want to spend a lot of money buying third party stuff, which can get very expensive.
I know there will never be a perfect solution, but i am looking for the one that is close to perfect and contains as much plugs and instruments from the outset.Quality is my primary concern, or else that would mean having to spend more to get the third party alternatives.
I think it sounds like DP has a brilliant workflow but as stated in here, it obviously is not arrayed with top notch useable synths of the highest order; i am not happy with the quality of the ones that come with Logic so i decided to look elsewhere.
I didn't want to work on a PC but nonetheless i took a look at Sonar7 and was blown away by what it has to offer and have decided to go with it.(I'm not looking forward to working with windows, not to mention that i'm computer illeterate), but Sonar looked to good to refuse as a comprehensive allround quality package.
If you don't mind, out of courtesy i would like to explain why i have decided to go with Sonar.
- It is a 64 bit application, compatible with Vista64 edition, which apparently gives massive headroom, more dynamic range, a better non digital sounding result and more processor efficiency
- It comes with top notch 64bit phase linear mastering plugins
- I listened to the included synths and every one of them sounds absolutely awesome
- The Roland V-vocal processor is a dream come true for messing with vocals or artificially getting a pro result
- It comes with many sounds(and loops) included, from sample programs to synth presets
- I hear the audio editing is right up there for quick and fancy editing, Pro Tools style
- It has many top quality effects that will help a novice like me get the result i need to take on the big guns
- Free VST synths abound on the net
- Sonar comes with so much included that i won't have to spend extra money
- Classic Roland TR909 drumkits come with the included Roland groovesynth due to Cakewalks collaboration with Roland in recent years

Thankyou everyone for trying to help a newbie enter the world of DAWS, and i wish you all the best for the future. "Live long and prosper!" Take care...