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This forum is for seeking solutions to technical problems involving Digital Performer and/or plug-ins on MacOS, as well as feature requests, criticisms, comparison to other DAWs.
Hi guys, i'mk looking for a computer DAW and have never used one before(except a bit of garageband).
i have decided that the Mac is better than PC and i am tossing up between DP and Logicstudio.
My main concern is quality of included plugs and instruments.
As Motu's website is a bit sparse on certain info(or i haven't looked hard enough) would you mind telling me exactly what mastering plugins come with DP and how they perform(eg:multiband compressor,specific mastering eq,limiting maximiser,tube emulation etc)
And i am very keen to know what the VI's sound like(are they phat and analog like or digital and thinnish sounding)
plus i want to know if any sound sets are included with the standard sampler provided and if there are any TR909 drum kits as i make house techno and trance.Thanx, i hope you don't mind my beginner questions, but i'm really keen on DP because logic can seem like bloatware and has some long standing bugs and is unsophisticated in the audio editing department. Oh and please tell me if DP includes a vocal(pitch and stretch)processor. thanx again. long and detailed answers and opinions are always appreciated.
In short - Logic has much more in the way of 'bundled' instruments. That said, DP has some very good ones, and most people tend to buy their favourite 3rd party plugins/Instruments anyway. You can use DP's model 12 for drum programming (it's similar to the Re-Drum in Reason) and TR909/808/606 sample libraries abound on the internet for free download (if you don't like the samples that already come with it). There's some serviceable synths built-in, an analog, an FM, and Modulo, which I haven't really done much with, but many users have got great results with.
Plugins-wise DP6 includes a convolution reverb, opto-compressor (modelled on the LA-2A), 3 band compressor, brickwall limiter, advanced gates, a fantastic EQ (with FFT!) + a lot more - pretty much all your bread-and-butter plug-ins. You'll definitely be able to do a hell of a lot without purchasing a single 3rd party plugin.
DP has the best integrated pitch correction tools of all the DAW's (by a long-shot), it's similar to melodyne in design, but is integrated right into the edit window, so you just select pitch from the soundbite view selector and away you go - just like editing MIDI notes.
DP 9.52 Mac Pro 10.14.6 RME fireface800. Sibelius. Dorico 4
The first thing you should know is that there will be many features in any DAW that some consider to be essential while others consider to be incidental. Often, bundled plugins and instruments are not going to offer the quality and flexibility of those plugins that you would otherwise buy to expand your arsenal.
Logic, for example, certainly has *more* VIs bundled with it that DP does. But while VIs in both DAWs are quite usable, there are limits that distinguish them from add-on instruments that you can buy separately. But there's a thin line between what an app offers as "greater variety" from "bloatware". That is entirely a matter of taste determined by the user.
If it's the instruments you want, there is an argument to be made in favor of using Garage Band for a while longer and investing in third-party virtual instruments first and foremost. So many excellent VIs are quite compatible with Garage Band.
But if it's a DAW you are choosing, I wouldn't advise making your decision based so heavily on the bundled VIs. A DAW is an important tool in its own right that should work as an extension of your thought process and not force you to work in ways contrary to your creativity. Which DAW that might be is again up to the individual user. Of course, in these parts there will be a particular bias for DP. However, there are a lot of happy Logic and ProTools users here as well. To choose a DAW may require visiting a music shop with these DAWs installed and running-- or finding a friend in town who has one or the other who would also be willing to spend an hour or so walking you through the DAW.
Personally, I like Logic but I love DP. That's just my own conclusion based upon my use of each. Now that Logic 8 has been out for a while, I'm even more eager to get DP6, which will most likely ship this summer.
But I didn't buy DP for the VIs. In fact, when I bought DP there were no bundled VIs!! MOTU only started bundling a handful of nice but basic VIs a couple of years ago. I bought DP because it thinks more like I do-- or I think more the way it does. Logic is great for certain types of tasks. It has nice loop-based features, but it's not the easiest program for audio editing, imho.
As for DP's VIs, I don't use them because I have other VIs that were carefully chosen to suit the kinds of projects I do. For the most part, to use DPs VIs would require tailoring your creativity to suit the capabilities and limitations of the VIs in terms of type of sounds available and flexibility of features. Yes, there are the usual analog and digital tone generators and such-- but Modulo (MOTU's bundled analog synth) doesn't hold a candle to MOTU's own MX4 (not included with DP). It's like night and day. Likewise, the small bundled sampler (Nanosampler) can hardly compare to MOTU's own MachFive universal sampler for features and flexibility alone. That's not to exclude similar products from other developers,
But the idea is the same. If you want VIs, you will need to do some custom shopping for instruments and sound libraries so that you have the kinds of sounds you need for the music you want to create.
With that said, even though I'm strongly in favor of DP, Logic does come with an extensive set of sounds and loops with easy to set up templates to get you started. In a matter of seconds you could have a full orchestra loaded or a pop rhythm section at your finger tips. With DP, it takes a little more time to set up a project-- but DP doesn't assume anything about the way you want to work by loading a lot of unwanted junk into your project.
As for MOTU's fx plugins, the Masterworks group of fx are excellent. The EQ's are also quite usable, as are most of the dynamics processors. There *are* older fx still bundled that are probably less attractive (to me, anyway). The current MOTU Reverb has never proven to be terribly usable for me, but DP6 will bundle a new convolution reverb (ProVerb) that will be a most welcome happy addition.
The same applies with fx that applies with VIs: if you have specific taste, you cannot avoid shopping for specific plugins to accomplish the task. Lots of users have added the UAD-1 card and plugins from Universal Audio. These are high quality emulations of beloved analog limiters, comps, eq's, and other effects by Neve, Roland, and mostly Universal Audio itself. TC Electronics has a similar fx system that includes many of the System 6000 plugins that were made famous for their abundant use in the film industry. Solid State Logic has its own Duende units which emulate its own SSL bus compression, etc. The list of third-party plugins are almost endless (and most are just software based-- and excellent), but most all of these fx bundles are going to always offer features and tone possibilities well beyond almost anything which would be typically bundled with a DAW.
If it's a matter of choosing between a DAW or great instruments, I would start building my virtual studio first by investing in great virtual instruments to use in GarageBand. That's going to get you a little closer to the kind of output it seems you want.... great sounds, etc., rather than to buy a DAW now and still feel "wanting" for the right sounds and instruments.
Logic and DP are going to be around for a while, and your need for either or the other DAW will reveal itself as you outgrow GarageBand.
Hope that helps!
[edit-- many points made here have already been mentioned by Mr. Clifford who's faster on the draw!!]
I think a GarageBand user would be happier with Logic.
The conversions are transparent and the look and feel are similar.
Logic 8 has a huge amount of stuff that comes bundled.
If I was starting over (with no history), I would probably choose Logic.
You get everything you need to make great sounding music.
That being said, I don't like using Logic 8.
I have tried to embrace the interface and conventions, but for me DP is so much better.
This is probably a case of "old dog, new tricks", but I hate working in Logic.
DP seems more "logical" to me.
I like the way it works.
I also give a major thumbs up for DP's pitch correction.
DP6 seems like an even better solution for me.
Re: the original question....
You said, " My main concern is quality of included plugs and instruments. "
In this case, my recommendation would be Logic.
You will get a huge amount of content.
Back to me...
I will stay with DP for my bread and butter.
It works great, sounds great and I can fly around in it.
I'm happy to have Logic onboard, but I wouldn't use it as my main sw.
waterstrum wrote:
That being said, I don't like using Logic 8.
Hey waterstrum-- you spelled out my same quandary. For all of Logic's "content", it's truly in its workflow that some people take issue.
waterstrum wrote:
I have tried to embrace the interface and conventions, but for me DP is so much better.
+1
waterstrum wrote:
This is probably a case of "old dog, new tricks", but I hate working in Logic.
DP seems more "logical" to me.
I like the way it works.
I also give a major thumbs up for DP's pitch correction.
I was just thinking the same thing-- Coming from DP or PT, Logic just may feel very, very different-- and change can be uncomfortable when one has worked so hard for many years to nail down a method of working.
waterstrum wrote:
DP6 seems like an even better solution for me.
waterstrum wrote:
Re: the original question....
You said, " My main concern is quality of included plugs and instruments. "
In this case, my recommendation would be Logic.
You will get a huge amount of content.
Huge amount of content-- quantitative
Quality of plugs and VIs-- qualitative-- more difficult to assess.
waterstrum wrote:
Back to me...
I will stay with DP for my bread and butter.
It works great, sounds great and I can fly around in it.
I'm happy to have Logic onboard, but I wouldn't use it as my main sw.
That just underscores my point of just how subjective choosing software can be-- and the need to get one's hands on different DAWs for a first-hand test run. It's just such an intensely personal topic to address easily.
I'll add to the explanations above.... I've used Logic for a recording project and found we wasted alot of time on it, doing stuff that in DP took less time. Also, the singer deleted 4 hours of vocal takes in one swoop, and you can't do that in DP! We wasted a whole day and I discovered that by choosing DP, I had made the right choice.
Rarely when using a piece of software year after year, do you hear people say "Wow, I really love this program." However, if you read the posts here, a number of us have had this lucky experience. I think DP is amazing, really. Sure, I wouldn't mind more freebees like VI's, but like someone else pointed out, I bought these separately. I'm very happy with DP, and the support I must point out, has been excellent by MOTU, as well as the incredibly friendly and helpful people on this board.
When I was shopping around, it was a choice of Pro Tools (which I was taught and had used in the studio), Logic or DP. I wanted to go for Pro Tools but a friend talked me into getting DP, and I've never looked back. Pro Tools is double if not quadruple the price of DP with extra costs applied for those willing to pay for it. But with DP you get the same, if not better, with less bugs and far less costs. I have no regrets in choosing DP, and I doubt you will either.
I have no affiliation with MOTU! They have not paid me to write this (unfortunately)...
If you know someone who can demo either app for you, it would be great. You could ask all kinds of questions, etc.
I was in the same position as you a few years ago. It was between the rest of the Mac DAWs and DP. I am SO GLAD I chose DP!!!
I read your post at BBL, and I think you already have enough elements to make your decision. To tell you the truth, you can't go wrong with either program. It really depends a lot on what you want to do with it.
Unsurprisingly, if you ask me, I'd tell you to get DP. Hands down!!!
What a surprise
Mac Mini Server i7 2.66 GHs/16 GB RAM / OSX 10.14 / DP 9.52
Tascam DM-24, MOTU Track 16, all Spectrasonics' stuff,
Vienna Instruments SUPER PACKAGE, Waves Mercury, slaved iMac and Mac Minis running VEP 7, etc.
--------------------------- "In physics the truth is rarely perfectly clear, and that is certainly universally the case in human affairs. Hence, what is not surrounded by uncertainty cannot be the truth." ― Richard Feynman
waterstrum wrote:That being said, I don't like using Logic 8.
I have tried to embrace the interface and conventions, but for me DP is so much better.
Totally agree. I started with Logic over a year ago – because I’d heard of so many other people using it. However, all the way through the learning process I just kept feeling either “this bit seems way over-complicated” or “where’s that feature? Oh it’s not in Logic…”
Yes the user interface looks good. To be frank, it looks a lot more modern than DP5. But when it comes to actually using it, DP5 is easier and more intuitive (to me).
I can’t wait until DP6 ships. From what I’ve read, it really seems to plug the few remaining holes in DP5.
Finally, you can’t ignore this forum as an excellent resource for DP. It is the best there is. I have spent a lot of time on the two major Logic forums (fora?), as well as in the Cubase and Sonar forums.
Have a look yourself and see what people are posting. Is it moaning? Is it asking for help? Is it requesting workarounds for missing features? And what do you replies look like – Helpful? Sarcastic? Sneering?
Take an hour or two of your time and spend 20 mins or so in each forum. It will be interesting.
Best of luck to you, whatever you decide.
Tyrone Howe
DP 7.24, Mac Pro 8-core 2.26Ghz 32 GB (OSX 10.7.4)
If it's the instruments you want, there is an argument to be made in favor of using Garage Band for a while longer and investing in third-party virtual instruments first and foremost. So many excellent VIs are quite compatible with Garage Band.
Sounds like you have a desire to buy something... If you can wait, do. I'm only writing this because I've done some KneeJerk buys over the years to only have regret. If I can save someone the regret ....... then I''m a great Guy.
I'd hang with GB for awhile. Explore your process and desire to make music and take the program GB to task and You already have it!!!
With all programs, it's not always what you have , it's what you do with them.
i want to know if any sound sets are included with the standard sampler provided and if there are any TR909 drum kits as i make house techno and trance.
I wouldn't say DP comes with a sampler. Has a plugin that will play a sample.
If none of what i've written applies:
Your a trance/house guy, you should take a look a Reason. You can make stuff happen very quickly in Reason.
I think Reason rewires to GB? Bam your done. Reason is a tweaker's delight. This is good to have regardless of either DP or Logic.
I would go with Logic, hands down. Don't get me wrong, I love DP. However, I have found that Logic lends itself to the kind of music you want to make more than DP. If you were doing orchestral work I'd recommend DP.
To me, the Logic workflow is both intuitive and fast. I *get* the program. It is terrific for loop based music and will come with a truck load of sounds and VIs that you will find useful from minute one. For instance, after Logic finished installing it took me about 30 minutes to put together a simple trance song using Apple Loops and a VI or two.
DP can get very deep as a program, but I don't think it lends itself to the kind of music you are going to make. If you are going to want to interact with other folks in the dance / d n' b world you will find more Logic users than DP users. At least that is what I have found in my experience.
Someone also recommended Reason and I totally agree and will throw in Ableton Live for good measure. If price is an issue you should look at purchasing either of them and using Reaper. (But check to make sure Reaper has ReWire support.) The good news is you have lots of choices.
I agree completely with you !
You have pin pointed the important aspect of his question .
The kind of music he is about to create .
Logic is tuned for that kind of music .
Aramis
IAMLFO wrote:Ok, I'll prepare to get tomatos thrown at me...
I would go with Logic, hands down. Don't get me wrong, I love DP. However, I have found that Logic lends itself to the kind of music you want to make more than DP. If you were doing orchestral work I'd recommend DP.
To me, the Logic workflow is both intuitive and fast. I *get* the program. It is terrific for loop based music and will come with a truck load of sounds and VIs that you will find useful from minute one. For instance, after Logic finished installing it took me about 30 minutes to put together a simple trance song using Apple Loops and a VI or two.
DP can get very deep as a program, but I don't think it lends itself to the kind of music you are going to make. If you are going to want to interact with other folks in the dance / d n' b world you will find more Logic users than DP users. At least that is what I have found in my experience.
Someone also recommended Reason and I totally agree and will throw in Ableton Live for good measure. If price is an issue you should look at purchasing either of them and using Reaper. (But check to make sure Reaper has ReWire support.) The good news is you have lots of choices.
-Kevin
iMac 2012 27 ' 3.2 ghz 32 gigs ram OSX 10.9.4 DigitalPerformer 8.7 , MOTU Track 16, MOTU MachFive3.2, Ethno and BPM , Komplete 9, OmniSphere , Trilian and Stylus RMX , Axon mkII and Godin LG .
Speaking just for myself - a verrrry long-time DP user who tried Logic8 when it came out but ultimately didn't end up using it much:
- Logic's VI's and effects pretty much blow away a lot of what is there in DP5. Whether that'll still be the case in DP6 is an open question.
If what you are seeking is an all-in-one package, as opposed to a "platform" on top of which you'll invest in certain VI's and effects to meet your individual needs, Logic therefore is your program. Some of the Logic plugins are excellent, something that can only be said of a small handful of DP's such as Masterworks EQs. Logic is therefore a LOT closer to a complete, total solution than DP. Whether this'll still be true with DP6 is less likely.
- But aside from the VI's and effects, which, truthfully, in the long run you probably will replace many with third-party products anyway, to my eye DP makes more sense and is a better platform for non-loop-based composition. Plus, despite what some people say about Logic being the preferred platform for MIDI, I personally feel DP is far and away the best MIDI / MIDI editing platform in the market, by a very wide margin. Note, I am just talking about MIDI, not audio.
- Logic is more efficient than DP in terms of how much processing power the VI's take, so if you have a borderline system like I do (i.e. not an 8-core with 6 gigs of RAM or something), that could be a strong argument for Logic.
In the end, it's a very individual decision. I *tried* hard to like Logic but I didn't. However, obviously many, many other people do. And nwo that Apple's really spending money on it, it's only going to get better and better over time.
long and detailed answers and opinions are always appreciated.
