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Originally posted by Resonant Alien:
Well, guess what guys - now we are on the cusp of not only tracking digitally, but mixing digitally as well. This is the next big leap, and the same arguments are coming out. "Digital mixes sound cold" Well, yes, if you just do the same things you did when you were running through that fat warm analog desk, then of course digital will sound colder because the desk itself colored the sound. SO....we just have to find new waysaround it....like the dangerous 2 bus or other eq techniques.
Just my honest opinion...[/QB]
well said.
hey Jayman,
if you're still around this thread...
i can't find anything about the AES16 and DP either... watch out dude, make sure you're not getting yourself into more trouble than it's worth. granted, the AES16 is actually the least expensive part of doing this the way you want but, i dunno 'bout you, but i ain't made of money, plus having made the not-so-wise purchase a couple of times, i tend to be overcautious.
peace!
FM
FM fails to grasp the gravity of the situation.
<small>[ December 30, 2004, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: FM ]</small>
I've been kicking around the Idea personally of ditching the RME stuff, buying 2 motu hd 192s and having Jim Williams mod them. My guess is he would charge around $800 for a pair. They have nice converters, and if all of the analog components were smoking, it would be a truly dynamite box. Plus, you always know the drivers will kick ass.
I have 2 8200 API's I mix with and they are quite warm sounding but you need the 7800 too making it a 5 to 6K party but this SPL mixer looks like alot of bang for the buck.
You could likely get the SPL street for about 3K. The compressor also sounds delicious. I would listen to it first with full IO outputs of kick snare bass and loud guitars to make sure though before I plunked down the doe.
FYI I have a Roland M120 i'll let go for $200 that would work as a low budget starter mixer if that helps any of you buy the MOTU HD192s budget wise. It has level, Pan & headphone monitor, 12x2 in a single rackspace & sounds great with synths too. Oh, it's clean too. Email me direct eir@ispwest.com
Cheers
wow.
ok, back with another report.
after a sleepless night of bussin' and fussin' i decided to try something again.
a few days ago, i was trying to put my whole mix thru my pre (as i had mentioned earlier) and it just wasn't working. i was getting this phased out, bad mess.
last night and into this morning, i don't know when or how, i decided to enable monitor thru effects, i must have been trying some eq'ing or reverb on a softsynth.
i decided to buss the whole mix again, at a lower gain to see if could get at least little analog juice in there. guess what. i started with the output of the xlr's in the mini-dac real soft and slowly kept increasing the gain, all the time waiting for a blast of feedback to take my hearing away.
it never happened.
i engaged the built-in eq on the mindprint DTC (my pre) and begun to mess with actual analog eq'ing on my mix, no feedback. nothing.
then i thought that i maybe that i should try to conserve some resources and decided to turn monitor thru effects off, and boy did i get it.
the loudest shriek of feedback i've had all year.
turned the gain down on the mini-dac, turn monitor thru effects back on and all is well.
the best part is that now i have regained the gain (heh) i had lost when bussing straight out of the mini-dac and into the rosetta.
plus, i now am actually running my whole mix thru a pair of great tubes and a great pre, and YES it sounds different, and to my untrained, unprofessional ears it sounds great.
love that sh_t.
peace!
FM
FM is within the glow that weaves a cloak of delight.
Man . . . great stuff. That SPL box looks great. I have had their stereo monitor controller for a couple months now and it has added alot of functionality to my set-up. That Nautilus box looks great too.
Splinter, thanks for doing the null test and putting the hype to rest regarding the real-time vs. Audio menu BTD. At least I can sleep knowing I haven't shaved quality off ALL my past mixes by BTD from the Audio menu.
It is obvious now how quality D/A and summing is emerging as the next advcance in enhancing the state of the art of digital mixing.
Unfortunately, it will be a while before I can afford any of this stuff. So you guys have fum and I'll watch. Maybe in a year, the prices will have come down a bit . . . for sure other companies will be in the race.
Another great point I've been reading from numerous gurus on Lynn's forum is that without out a great frontend (mics, pres, and converters), summing out of the box isn't going to make something sound better that already sounds like crap.
In other words, if you're going to spend 5K on D/As and summing busses, you'd be much better off spending that money on great mic, pres, and converters and mixing ITB.
Makes a whole lot of sense to me.
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I know I'll get s$#t for this, but splinter, I find that to be partially correct. I just made a record with semi sub-par front end ingredients, (started a year ago before I had better stuff), and the final result turned out better than a colleagues project that used GREAT front end stuff, and was mixed ITB by a famous name. (won't say who). I agree that you do need good conversion at both steps, but for little broke old me, I craved the sound of better 2 bus processing more than I craved the sound of one U-67 for the sax player if you know what I mean. It seemed to make a greater difference than individual components in my mind, and the final result actually proves that. So if better summing is what you are craving, go for it, don't wait to get $50,000 of front end stuff first. Just my opinion.
In other words, if you're going to spend 5K on D/As and summing busses, you'd be much better off spending that money on great mic, pres, and converters and mixing ITB.
Yes, absolutely IMO....
I had a Dangerous 2-BUS and loved it, but only when going straight out to a MasterLink, and even then I wasn't happy with the 16 stem D/A to the Dangerous and stereo A/D to the Alesis. I decided to sell the 2-BUS and buy a few front end things that will always sound great: A Martech pre, Pendulum Quartet, Chandler TG2, a pair of Josephson SC mics and a Soundelux IFET7....
Now I have ultra sweet analog sounds converted by a Mytek ADC into DP. When I mixdown I just send it all digital to the MasterLink. To me it sounds great, plus I can always go analog summing when the converters catch up and become affordable, which I believe they will in the not too distant future.
Of course as thermos said, there are any number of ways to do this and great gear won't help if you can't put it to creative use....it is after all the Indian and not the arrow....
Of course as thermos said, there are any number of ways to do this and great gear won't help if you can't put it to creative use....it is after all the Indian and not the arrow....
good point.
good front end pieces do make a difference.
it wasn't until i started recording thru an apogee piece, and clocking from it, that i really saw a remarkable improvement in my sound. props to the unicornation member that totally hooked me up with the rosetta.
i do have to say though, that now that i'm beginning to dive into OTB recording (not summing/mixing yet, gotta get the dough) i realise that i need to find a way to preserve the quality i acquired on the way in.
a year ago i wouldn't even think of going OTB, now, due to recent experiences, i have changed my tune. (heh)
but i have to echo mr. strut's remark, with a little imagination you can get a lot out of your existing gear.
that said, i will hopefully get my paws on some gear...
cheers!
FM
FM is available only through this special TV offer.
I wasn't undermining the benefit of out of the box summing. I just though it was a good point that you can spend a lot of money on the backend and all you'll be mixing is a bunch of crappy sounding instruments if your frontend sucks.
That said, I don't know that a U67, a Millenia, and a Prism are required (as nice as that would be), but if you're about to sink that money into DAs and a D2B and you're recording with 58's and a Mackie, I'd think your money would be better spent elsewhere first.
Let us not forget that many great sounding records have been mixed ITB... many. As beneficial as OTB summing is, it is not THE ingredient to a great sounding mix.
For me, I have some good mics. Some 414EBs, a 4050, a Rode Classic (original), some C3000's, 3 Oktava MC012s, a D112 and some other AKG drum mics, a C535 (I love that mic!), a 57... I think that's it. I have a Langevin Dual Mono Pre with EQ and a Digimax LT and a 2408III. My mics are good... though I could use a good matched pair of small diaphragm condensers... Earthworks or 451s or something.
My Langevin is a nice pre for a clean solid state sound. I use it for most things and pull my Digimax into service when I need more tracks for drums or something. As much as I'd like better pres, what I have works for me and the sound is good. The Presonus, is a good little box for the dough... clean and punchy. I would like 2 channels of tube pres or a good tube channel. Any suggestions?
Then there's my 2408III. Definitely the weakest link, though a significant leap up from the 2408II I had before. I still think a good clock would dramatically improve the quality of the converters (or any system), but better converters is where I would put my money in my system.
All that said, I do a lot of live recording to DA38s with a variety of different frontends (mics and pres). Having analog summing sure would be nice to bring everything together. In a live setting, you have a lot less choices, so as much as you can do to help things on the backend, the better.
For me, the next step is good conversion. I'd like a Mytek Stereo96, but it is only AES outs and I have no way of getting it into my 2408, so I'm thinking about the Rosetta 200. AD and DAs with a Big Ben Clock, sure would notch up my system, but dang Apogee stuff is expensive for what you get. Many think Apogee is more about hype and less about quality. I don't know. Any opinions there?
I upgraded my studio early last year and started using the Rosetta 800/96 out to a 2408mk3 via the light pipe into a Tascam DM-24 mixer, which are all clocked to a Big Ben.
This impoved my sound dramaticly!!! I put an analog card in my DM-24 in order to hear D/A conversion from the Rosetta and love what I hear back. I recently treated myself to a Benchmark DAC-1 from Sweetwater (because of their return policy just in case I didn't hear a difference) and my studio went up another notch!!! All that said, analog summing does make a difference. Mixes that I've done on my DA-88's going through an old Tascam M3500 seem to have a certain desirable quality to them. I've heard some people call it "glue", maybe it's just analog distortion which some call "warmth". Whatever it is, it's what most of us want to hear.
I seem to have captured that sound by strapping an Avalon 747 to my stereo bus with about a 2/1 ratio with a medium attack that barley gets the gain reduction light to blink. I then go into the hardware version of the Waves L2 for some light limiting/maximizing, out to the original version of the Tony Larkin C1 compressor/pre with no compression engaged. I just want to pass the stereo signal through more tubes. I then send that signal into a Masterlink via the analog ins. That chain seems to get me that "glue/warmth" that I desire. Some here wouldn't advise this because of the Masterlinks so-so converters, but it works for me. This thread made me add the C1 to the final stage. (THANKS FM) I'll probably try re-arranging the chain by putting the C1 before the L2, allowing me to clock the L2 to the Big Ben, and digitally go to the Masterlink bypassing the Alesis A/D conversion.
Who knows?
The latest project that I'm mixing is suppose to be Mastered by
Emily Lazar. I'm curious to hear what she thinks about the mixes.
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