dudes... i got it! i effin' got it!

[FM]

Originally posted by amplidood:
Jayman,

1. route all track outputs to spdif. With spdif, there are two outs on a 2408....you can send one to your monitoring device, and hook the other back to the in. Assign a stereo track's input to that, and print the mix.

2. use lightpipe the same way as above, but assign the stereo mixdown tracks output to spdif for monitoring. You'll have to be sure that Audio Patch Thru is on, as well messing with the Input Monitoring Mode settings. Why MOTU never made this function easier to access I'll never understand.

The main reason I gave two methods is because they sound different. See which one you like best.

in my case i can only use the xlr outs of my mini-dac because it's the only output choice i have with that particular piece.
it's absolutely not the optimal way but, for me right now, it's the only way i got.
the next step would be to get into a D/A converter that has multiple outs and a summing box. pricey pricey, definetly not in my budget.
what i think i'm going to do is to research things like the dangerous 2-bus LT.
it's under $1500 and i've read good reviews about it.
the question is; will i be able to get what i need with that and what i already have?
hmmmm...

(actually, there is a also 1/8" and a headphone jack but i'm not so sure how those would work.)

cheers!

FM

FM feels good, he knew that he would now.

<small>[ December 25, 2004, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: FM ]</small>

[soulful strut]

Just a couple of thoughts and a question.....

Re: Mytek, I have the ADC, it's a lovely, lovely little box. What used to sound sharp and thin now sounds round and whole...I also use it as my clock, rock solid.

The D2B-LT is a great summing amp, but you need 16 D/A's and if they're not great quality you're not close to getting the result you should. You also need a great stereo DAC but the Rosetta has that covered.

FM, do you also use the Mini DAC to send to your monitors?

[Jaysplace101]

Whew... this has turned in to a big journey for me. I've been all around on different forums reading about this summing crap that's going to cost me a crap-load of money. To summarize.

1. Amplidood, that's basically what I was doing is routing the final stereo mix out via lightpipe (or spdif) and then back into a stereo pair to record. And it definitely does make a difference.

2. I've done enough reading to come to the conclusion that going out of the box for summing can make all the difference in the world, and guys are really swearing by this "Dangerous 2 buss" box. BUT, I really think soulful strut is right when he says that if you don't have 16 channels of great D/A, it's not going to do what you need it to do. So, then the question becomes which D/A is the best option for the money? And, to use the LT version (which is less expensive) your D/As have to have the Tascam DA88 pinout. Do they all have this? I'm ignorant... no need to answer that, I'll go look after I'm done typing here.

*******After hearing the noticable difference in sound from just the little experiment I did earlier in this thread, I have come to the conclusion that this would/could help a TON. We're talking night and day. BUT, FM, you're right, it's a pretty hefty chunk of change to do it. 16 channels of great D/A, and the Dangerous 2busLT... lots of cash. Is it worh it? Is there a less expensive way to get similar results. Amplidood, sounds like you're getting pretty good results by just sending stuff in and out of the digital outputs of your 2408, and I have first hand experience now of the same thing, but how much better would 16 channels of ANALOG SUMMING be? From what I've read, it sounds like it could be WAY better. I'm rambling, I'll quit. Whaddayall think?

This is a fun, enticing, and probably ultimately expensive discussion.

Jayman

[FM]

Originally posted by soulful strut:
Just a couple of thoughts and a question.....

Re: Mytek, I have the ADC, it's a lovely, lovely little box. What used to sound sharp and thin now sounds round and whole...I also use it as my clock, rock solid.

The D2B-LT is a great summing amp, but you need 16 D/A's and if they're not great quality you're not close to getting the result you should. You also need a great stereo DAC but the Rosetta has that covered.

FM, do you also use the Mini DAC to send to your monitors?

sure do.
the analog outs of the mini-dac were designed to work with powered amps/monitors.
my original intention when i got the mini-dac was to use it on stage.
to make a long story short, all members except two of a project i'm involved in quit the project, leaving the drummer and the singer (me) to carry on or just leave it.
we decided that if we had a way to have the pre-recorded performances on stage we would just go on, with him on drums and me on guitar/voice.
enter the mini-dac. with it i can play a sequence straight out of my ibook via DP or if i want to be really simple; itunes.
it is amazing. we get a great sound through our PA. it's awesome.

Jayman,

you're totally right.
this is one of those areas where it starts to get REALLY expensive.
i am researching more affordable avenues but so far it seems like they got us by the cojones.
at least i'm glad that you can hear a difference and that proves that, in spite of popular opinion , i'm not losing my mind.
if you come across anything please post it back, i will do the same.

it ain't over 'till it's over.

peace!

FM

FM is taking a bite out of crime.

[Jaysplace101]

You know, FM, the new Lynx Aurora 8 or 16 looks really good. I've been researching more, and this box would give you a ton of D/A or A/D, and it's received rave reviews. It looks like it would work really well with the Lynx AES16. I wonder if anyone is using this with DP?? This would still be really expensive, of course, but couple this with the Dangerous 2buss, and I think you'd really have something. For me, at least, Mr. cheap tascam converter man, this would be a major step up. Anyone using the Lynx stuff? The Aurora won't be out until January... right around the corner if they're telling the truth.

Jayman

[FM]

Originally posted by Jayman:
You know, FM, the new Lynx Aurora 8 or 16 looks really good. I've been researching more, and this box would give you a ton of D/A or A/D, and it's received rave reviews. It looks like it would work really well with the Lynx AES16. I wonder if anyone is using this with DP?? This would still be really expensive, of course, but couple this with the Dangerous 2buss, and I think you'd really have something. For me, at least, Mr. cheap tascam converter man, this would be a major step up. Anyone using the Lynx stuff? The Aurora won't be out until January... right around the corner if they're telling the truth.

Jayman

it does look good.
that plus the dangerous LT...
i'm concerned about that lynx aes16 deal, though. i dunno if it would work with my existing gear.
i gotta at least try to work around what i got although i'm beginning to fear that it just won't be possible.
thanks for the info!
i'm actually on my way to the guitar center in mahattan to pick their brains a bit. and to covet as well.
i might be back with some helpfull info or just pissed-off at pushy sales guys.

peace!

FM

FM is keeping his mind on his money and his money on his mind.

<small>[ December 26, 2004, 09:45 AM: Message edited by: FM ]</small>

[GORILLA]

Hello guys....
Cool thread. I do not use D.P. .....yet!
But I use a D.A.W. and know the feeling of digititus recordings. I'm lucky to have a C.D.master sessions of my buds who had a big time engineer do their C.D. a few years back. The first thing I noticed was all the bussing going on.

Here's a few more analog summing devices

Folcrom

Niceriser

Pretty important things:
1. Frequency ranges...give each instrument it's own spot in the frequency field.
2. Bussing....get out of the digital domain and get some analog noise.
3. Delay times (.ms) -Depth man depth! 2D or 3D? I prefer 3D!
4. Individual track sounds. If all the tracks sound sweet together...you got a pinata! If they don't...you got a piece of poop in your bag and you better get rid of it!
5. And of course--panning!

Bounced to disc sample,no nudging tracks

Bussed sample,nudged tracks(delays---.ms)
I buss my tracks mono and stereo out thru a Apogee PSX-100SE and back in. Sorry as I mentioned, I don't use D.P. yet. But it definitely is on my must buy "RIGHT NOW!" list. But you can hear the difference between BTD & Buss. The first time I did it, you would of thought I won the lottery!

[Jaysplace101]

Thanks for chiming in Gorilla. The downside to the Folcrum is that it takes a preamp for make-up gain. I don't believe the Dangerous 2buss does. The downside to the other one you mentioned from mercenary is the price. I'll bet in a year there will be a ton of options for this. The other option I'm looking in to is the RME ADI-1 DS.

http://www.rme-audio.com/english/adi/adi8ds.htm

Some reviews have put this box on par with the Apogee AD8000 for sound quality. But, we all know about reviews. I'm just thinking that just the inclusion of a summing box like the dangerous might help a lot. -- even if the converters in the RME weren't quite up to par with a mytek, lavry or apogee. Although, some people say they're darn close.

Gorilla, I think the BTD method is a big no-no. I've never done that, but what I have done is buss eveyrthing down to two channels all ITB (In the box) and I've discovered through this thread that I shouldn't do that ever again. No, the question is; what to buy. I'm going to get this dangerous thing no matter what, but the question is, which converters.

Jayman

[GORILLA]

Yeah that RME is really really nice. Nice clock too. Their converters are great!

Hey I've heard stuff through the D2B. It really thumps. I heard Andy(Sneap) sold his D2B on Ebay.

[Jaysplace101]

Gorilla, have you heard the RME? I read another thread where a bunch of opinions were flying around, and it's like people automatically assume that because it's an apogee, it rocks, but I've read other stuff including wthat you just said that the RME stuff is really great, and the clock is really great in it. Who knows, I'll keep looking around and maybe go somewhere I can A/B for myself.

Why would Sneap sell his? I thought in my online research that he was a guy who was saying the D2B was cool. Maybe not.

FM, did you come up with anything at guitar center? They probably tried to talk you into buying 8 mad cows.

Jayman

[Kind Of Loud]

Why would Sneap sell his?

Because he mixes ITB with a Pro ToolsHD rig.....go figure.

[FM]

Originally posted by Jayman:


FM, did you come up with anything at guitar center? They probably tried to talk you into buying 8 mad cows.

Jayman

yeah... kind of a waste of time.
i knew more than half the guys there, i have no idea how that's possible, i barely understand an eighth of what my rig can do.
i walked away with two things though, actually make that three.

1 - there doesn't seem to be an budget friendly way to do this, unless i can get a piece that does not require external preamplification and a D/A device.

2 - a pair of monster cables to try a different way of rigging which i will try out tonight. love monster cables.

3 - the guarantee from every salesman in the place that they will beat any price. i have decided not to hold my breath on that one.

man, if i can find a piece that fits category one i might be in business and it will allow me to expand. i refuse to buy something that i will not be able to expand on later.
you know, you're probably right, if any of these companies start looking at the market of project studios a little closer they might come up with pieces that fill the niche.
maybe motu would be interested?

cheers!

FM

FM is hiding under your bed.

[thermos]

Jayman and others
I currently employ a Dangerous 2 bus lt in my setup. You don't need a sound card with pin outs, just get snakes made up that go 1/4" or xlr to that pin configuration.
D/A does make all the difference in the world. I first tried my Dangerous box with my Motu 896. SUCKED! That D/A could melt your brain its so bad. After trying 2 other motu boxes (2408 mk3 and 828 mk2) I decided to try something better. So I now have 2 RME Firefaces, and the D/A is quite good. Definitely not going to get in your way. I'm not sure how good the drivers are yet, they just updated them and I haven't havd a chance to use them yet, but as of 2 weeks ago they were pretty bad.
FWIW, I find the D2B to be indispensible now. The difference actually isn't as glaringly obvious as you may think, but for some reason I can't work with out mine now. Sometimes I'll screw around trying to do a mix itb and fight and fight for 4 hours, then just put stems through the dangerous and its done. It really helps eliminate that cold weird sheen to itb summing. More distance between the sounds and also a more glueish sound, especially when you hit it hard.
I just recently had a project mastered by super great Mastering engineer Joe Gastwirt, and he was commenting on what a difference he felt the box made. He said "I wouldn't be suprised if they put some kind of tape emulation thing in there." They didn't but it does sound more analog. The other interesting point was I made 2 different bounces of 1 song and did one bounce sending 2 DB more of level to the D2B (via the Fireface software). Even that little difference was huge, and we both couldn't believe that such a small difference in DB driving the D2B could make such a big impact on the sound. In short, it does take a little work to find the sweet spot, and in the Dangerouses case it likes to have its ass kicked.
You should also check out the audient sumo. (I want one HA!) I don't know how good the summing is, but it has a 2 bus compressor that sounds pretty great, very close to ssl. Plus it has a brickwall limiter (take or leave) and a pretty extensive monitoring section. Its damn cheap too.

[FM]

Originally posted by thermos:
You should also check out the audient sumo. (I want one HA!) I don't know how good the summing is, but it has a 2 bus compressor that sounds pretty great, very close to ssl. Plus it has a brickwall limiter (take or leave) and a pretty extensive monitoring section. Its damn cheap too.

thanks for the info!
i did a search at gearslutz but i didn't come away with any definitive answers.
it seems that the sumo is so new that it hasn't had chance to shine (or suck) yet, but i have to say, right now it goes to the top of my research list. for the price, the specs and the summing it sounds almost too good to be true.
so, you like the D2B LT, huh?
just one more question, could i use it with mny setup without having to buy something like an apogee D/A16?
i have the mini-dac and i can go out stereo via the two xlrs in the back, or just buss a few things out at a time.
or is it not worth it unless you can come out of the box at least a few stems a time?
thanks again, these are the kinds of tidbits that you really learn a lot from while your researching.

cheers!

FM

FM knows the five point palm exploding heart technique.

[mchimes]

I've been reading this thread with much interest. I have been strictly ITB and, like you'll am not thrilled with the result. I'm just wondering how much of the "difference" being heard is actual vs. perceived. There is no doubt that analog summing adds some mojo, but sending the signal out S/PDIF and back in to avoid a software bus . . . does that really do anything? I tried it last night.

I just recorded a guitar and voice demo with a stereo pair of one performance mixed with a mono track of just guitar (seperate performance). I mixed it down with some Sonalksis & Waves plugs just sent to a Master fader assigned to the Main outs of my 828 mkII. It sounded OK . . . or at least as good as I can get it to sound at present.

So after reading this thread last night, I went down and assigned the three tracks (the stereo pair and the mono track) to S/PDIF OUT 1-2 and routed that to a new stereo track with S/PDIF IN 1-2 as it's input. The output of that track was assigned to the Main Outs through which I monitored the signal.

I then had an A/B of the internal bus mix and the recorded "Out/In" mix. I set the mix where I could solo each with the click of a mouse and I did my best to hear a difference (more on that.) The first time I soloed the "Out/In" mix, I heard a tighter, cleaner, smoother sound (very very subtle though). I then clicked away for a while and, on another part of the song, heard an improvement when switching to the "Out/In" mix. So i thought I was onto something and was excited. Then I tried randomly clicking the mouse with my eyes closed so I could lose my sense of which I was hearing. At that point I began to hear things that were inconsistent and indistinguishable. For instance, at one point, I clicked and listened knowing it had to be the "Out/In" mix because it had that previous "signature" of perceived smoothness . . . it was the ITB mix. It became clear to me that my mind was "inventing" differences on this material with this experiment last night (how is that for qualification!) I think if you "want" to hear a difference you will- especially when you desire a certain result (which we all would if getting a better mix was as simple as running something out and back in S/PDIF)

Sooo . . . what does that mean? I want to try this on a bigger mix to see if the perceived shortcomings of the internal bus are compounded. I realize with 3 tracks that there isn't much summing (math) going on anyway. But I'm sure those plug-ins were chewing on some math . . . hmmm.

I'm not downplaying your conclusions . . . in fact I want them to be true. I just haven't experienced it yet and am very suspect of "tests" that aren't blind.

A word on my lsitening set-up. I have a professionally designed RFZ control room. The project was recorded at 24/44.1 played through the Main Outs of the 828 mkII, through Mogami cable into an SPL MTC 2381 (precision stereo monitoring device), out through Mogami cable into a Meyer 1000sa amp, out through Whirlwind 12 gauge speaker cable into a pair of soffit mounted Tannoy System 1200s)

I'm eager to hear your replies. I hope to try this with a bigger mix soon.

Thanks,
Mike