dudes... i got it! i effin' got it!

[Jaysplace101]

So, here's what I don't understand. And, maybe I can summarize by asking two questions:

1. When I'm running a sequence, I buss EVERYTHING, audio and VIs to a buss and then bounce it down realtime, and the bounce sounds exactly the same to my ears as what I was listening to while I mixed. So, are you saying, Dave Dempsey and FM, that you get your mixes sounding as good as you can and then you run them out and in like you've described and then wah-lah, it sounds like the veil has been lifted and everything sounds way better after the bounce? Better then what you were listening to just in DP out your main outs?

2. So, the other thing is, I buss drums and BGVs. Am I losing quality there? I mean, I just like to have the drums on one stereo channel sometimes so I can put an effect on them for a section of a song, or just adjust the volume more easily, or sometimes I'll put a limiter on the drum buss. Is this messing with the sound pretty bad too? How do you do a full mix without having SOME bussing?

Thanks much for your insight on all of this.

jayman

[iMAS]

Originally posted by davedempsey:
For summing I use a tube device from Lydkraft (took delivery of it a few weeks back) - the Tube-Tech SSA-2A, see here: http://www.tube-tech.com/?show=product&productId=17
This box has 4 mono and 8 stereo ins, all transformer balanced. There's no need for a pre-amp to gain up your mix as it doesn't rob level like the dangerous and other passive devices. The sound is open and lush, bright and warm - all things good. It's like lifting several veils from infront of and around your sound. It reveals depth and width in the soundfield and adds attractive harmonic coloration - I will never mix without it again, but I don't use it until the final stage, at which point the improvement is a quantum leap.

Hey, I might actually get this one...how much did you get yours for ?

[amplidood]

The fewer tracks being bussed at the same time, the better. The quality gets lower and lower as you pump more and more tracks thru the same internal buss. If you are *monitoring* thru the bus that you eventually real-time bounce, then no, you wouldn't hear a difference. However, if you instead kept all those tracks/VI's pumping out physical outputs (spdif, ADAT(lightpipe)) and monitored those, you would hear a HUGE difference between that and an entirely internal bus mix.

I'm always monitoring thru a Central Station getting spdif from my 2408mkII. I pretty much send everything to the spdif as I go. When I need to print VI tracks or tracks with FX, I do it through ADAT(lightpipe). I have banks A/B hooked up with a lightpipe cable going from the out back to the in of the same bank. I don't get feedback problems because I never monitor from the lightpipe. All I do is route the output of a track thru lightpipe to another track whose *input* is set to that same lightpipe channel.

The result is *very* different from doing everything internally. I don't pretend to know the science of why, I just know that it is.

[davedempsey]

Dan Weiss
Question: When you have more than 12 tracks (most of the time for me) how do you decide which ones will have to be summed in the box?

The SSA-2A gives me a total of 20 inputs - 4 mono and and 8 stereo. I use the 4 mono for kick, snare, bass and main vocal or solo instrument. The 8 stereos could be, for example, rest of kit, cymbals, guitars, strings, piano, synths, backing vox, brass - all depends on the track of course. These are all fed from aux sub groups, so there is some internal bussing going on.
When I get a chance I'll doing some experiments with creating these stems via the tube box and recording back into the DP project, nudging into place etc. Avoiding internal summing should easily outweigh the generational issue.

Jayman
So, are you saying, Dave Dempsey and FM, that you get your mixes sounding as good as you can and then you run them out and in like you've described and then wah-lah, it sounds like the veil has been lifted and everything sounds way better after the bounce? Better then what you were listening to just in DP out your main outs?

I do pretty much just that - work via the main outs in DP up until the final mix stage when I patch into the SSA-2A and do the mix. At this time the stereo out from the tube summing amp goes into a dbx Quantum where fine adjustments can be made if needed. The Quantum is connected via AES/EBU to a CDR640 burner.

iMAS
Hey, I might actually get this one...how much did you get yours for

This is not a cheap device - wherever you are it will have a list price more than that of a dual G5. If you're in Australia I can help you out - my day gig is Pro-audio sales. If you're not down under, you'll need to find a dealer in your region. Start with the high-end dealers as this is definitely top shelf gear.

<small>[ December 24, 2004, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: davedempsey ]</small>

[FM]

well... dave and amplidood have pretty much summed it up. oh my god!... i made the funny!!! sorry...
in further experimentation i attempted to mix through my tube pre-amp, it's a mindprint dtc and i like it alot.
the result is really dissapointing.
the thing just can't handle all those frequencies and as result what i get back in DP is a phased-out version of the original. unless i'm doing something wrong.
i think that the next thing to do is to get a device like the one dave has, it seems that without a summing box it will be pretty hard to introduce some kind of analog sweetening.
if anyone has any ideas as to why it phases like this i'd appreciate it.
on the bright side, i will continue stemming out to my apogees and mixing VI's that way, that alone makes a difference.
i can't even imagine what it would sound like if i had a good summing box and a good mastering piece.

cheers!

FM

FM takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'.

[Jaysplace101]

OK, thanks guys. So, you really don't here the beauty of going out of the box until the very end. Not while you're mixing. Right? And, FM, you're saying it would be better even for me to go lightpipe out and back in as opposed to bussing everything down like I do now. I think Phil was asking about this.

I'm going to try all of this later today, but I guess the only other downside to sending VIs and submixes out on lightpipe is the latency. What is the best way to deal with that?

Thanks again,

j

[Jaysplace101]

"hear the beauty" not "here" - just to make sure you know what I meant.

j

[FM]

Originally posted by Jayman:
OK, thanks guys. So, you really don't here the beauty of going out of the box until the very end. Not while you're mixing. Right? And, FM, you're saying it would be better even for me to go lightpipe out and back in as opposed to bussing everything down like I do now. I think Phil was asking about this.

I'm going to try all of this later today, but I guess the only other downside to sending VIs and submixes out on lightpipe is the latency. What is the best way to deal with that?

Thanks again,

j

that's right.
basically all i'm doing is recording a true audio signal from a high-end D/A converter thru a high-end A/D converter instead of "recording" digital data thru a software buss.
in other words, i'm taking advantage of the audio outputs of the mini-dac and using them as my source material.
i wish i had a nice outboard mastering compressor or something like that, plus a nice summing box, then i'd really have something.
right now the results are better than in the box, to my ears at least, i don't know the science of it but if you think about it, i'm actually recording audio, not letting the software do the math for me.
again, i wouldn't be able to do this without good AD/DA conversion, lord knows i tried before and the results were terrible. it wasn't untili got the mini-dac that i actually got good results.
i'd love to hear how it works out for you.

um... shouldn't we be doing some christmassy thing right now instead of playing with gear?... nah!

cheers!

FM

FM was dreaming when he wrote this so sue him if he goes astray.

[amplidood]

The latency is the same whether you're bussing internally or thru external digital routing. No worries there!!

[Jaysplace101]

OK guys, FM and Amplidood, I did a big test and by golly, you're right!

Here's my equipment... no fancy D/A or A/D; just a Tascam FW-1884 (which I think sounds pretty good BTW) which has 8 channels of ADAT I/O.

1. The old way: I summed everything internally to a stereo buss and bounced down the track that way.

2. The new way: I took the two VIs I was using (sampletank and stylus) and ran them OUT and IN the lightpipe. I did the same with drums, guitars, etc. and used up all of my Light pipe I/O except one stereo pair. They come back in on an Aux buss, and then I route the aux buss out to the final open stereo channel of ADAT I/O. And, I bounce the whole thing going OUT and then IN to a stereo lightpipe channel.

Did I do that right? Or is there something else I'm missing or doing wrong?

After I did this, I A/B'd the two mixes, and 5 out of 5 times, I was able to tell which was which. The difference was very noticable. Better imaging, wider, Fatter. All the good stuff. I wouldn't say that the difference was earth shattering, but it was there and it was big enough to do it this way from now on. BUT, I'm thinking that I need to buy some stuff.... like a good DAC and a good ADC. Is this what I need? I'm looking at the MYTECK. I've read a lot of great things about them, and I think it might be the way to go. If I get these things, will I clock to the DAC? Is that how you guys do it?

So, what should I buy, and did I do this correctly? This is really eye-opening. Thanks a ton!

Jayman

[amplidood]

You're still getting a bit of the bus effect by routing everyting thru an aux bus. I think you'll notice a bigger difference by routing everything straight out of spdif instead of thru a Master bus. I know this doesn't allow you to do any mastering stuff to the mix without another pass, but the sound quality will take yet another leap forward.

[Kind Of Loud]

Are you folks getting these results with just virtual instruments? Or do you notice a difference with actual recorded material? I guess what I'm trying to ask is: say you have recorded vocals, guitar, drums etc., through quality preamps/converters. By
then running these tracks out/in through an Adat connection and re-record, there is a noticable difference?...Or is it just the virtual instruments you hear a difference?

[Jaysplace101]

Amplidood, I'm sorry for my lack of understanding here, so are you saying that the stuff coming back from being bussed out lightpipe would then be routed right out the SPDIF output? And, if so, then where does it get recorded? Or, what does it get recorded with?

I'm sure I'm missing something obvious here, but the only way I can figure out how to get audio, VIs or guitars or whatever, bussed out of DP is to go in and out through light pipe and then when it comes back in, I HAVE TO use an aux, right?

I guess I'm having trouble figuring out how to do this without an aux.

Jayman

[FM]

Originally posted by Jayman:
OK guys, FM and Amplidood, I did a big test and by golly, you're right!

Here's my equipment... no fancy D/A or A/D; just a Tascam FW-1884 (which I think sounds pretty good BTW) which has 8 channels of ADAT I/O.

1. The old way: I summed everything internally to a stereo buss and bounced down the track that way.

2. The new way: I took the two VIs I was using (sampletank and stylus) and ran them OUT and IN the lightpipe. I did the same with drums, guitars, etc. and used up all of my Light pipe I/O except one stereo pair. They come back in on an Aux buss, and then I route the aux buss out to the final open stereo channel of ADAT I/O. And, I bounce the whole thing going OUT and then IN to a stereo lightpipe channel.

Did I do that right? Or is there something else I'm missing or doing wrong?

After I did this, I A/B'd the two mixes, and 5 out of 5 times, I was able to tell which was which. The difference was very noticable. Better imaging, wider, Fatter. All the good stuff. I wouldn't say that the difference was earth shattering, but it was there and it was big enough to do it this way from now on. BUT, I'm thinking that I need to buy some stuff.... like a good DAC and a good ADC. Is this what I need? I'm looking at the MYTECK. I've read a lot of great things about them, and I think it might be the way to go. If I get these things, will I clock to the DAC? Is that how you guys do it?

So, what should I buy, and did I do this correctly? This is really eye-opening. Thanks a ton!

Jayman

nice.
it sounds like you got a pretty good idea of how to get your rig to do what you wanti it to.
i don't do my routing the way you do, but i have a feeling that the way you're routing is better... i don't use an aux buss at all, i, literally record the audio out of my converters. i'm able to do that because my mini-dac has xlr outs.

if you're going to get into high-end conversion i suggest that you do a lot of research. this is a part of your rig that will greatly determine what you can do later on.
and it is absolutely and diametrically proportioned to your budget.
i wish i would have done a little more research prior to a couple of purchases; you live, you learn.

on the mixing front, thanks for posting your experience, i got a couple of ideas to try...

happy holidays all!

FM

FM returned from the Mexican Desert and immediately regressed into William Hurt.

[amplidood]

Jayman,

Sorry to be so vague. Since you can only monitor a stereo source I would suggest that you run *everything* to the spdif out for monitoring. You can hook up a spdif cable to whatever it is you are monitoring thru. I wouldn't recommend trying to run multiple submixes without going thru a good summing box or mixer of some kind. I only suggested using multiple lightpipe channels for *printing* multiple VI's/Tracks simultaneously.

For printing the final mix, you could experiment with a couple different methods....

1. route all track outputs to spdif. With spdif, there are two outs on a 2408....you can send one to your monitoring device, and hook the other back to the in. Assign a stereo track's input to that, and print the mix.

2. use lightpipe the same way as above, but assign the stereo mixdown tracks output to spdif for monitoring. You'll have to be sure that Audio Patch Thru is on, as well messing with the Input Monitoring Mode settings. Why MOTU never made this function easier to access I'll never understand.

The main reason I gave two methods is because they sound different. See which one you like best.