Overhead mic placement....

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Thu May 22, 2008 1:33 am

Yeah Phil, we're splitting split hairs at this point.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:22 am

monkey man wrote:Yeah Phil, we're splitting split hairs at this point.

WELL THAT'S ONLY FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT HAVE HAIR, mind you!

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:31 am

LOL!

If you examine my avatar, Brad, you'll notice that we're in a similar position.
My Unicorn horn takes the eye away from said anomaly.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:40 am

Well, at least I have a shirt on!

monkey man · Post by **monkey man** » Thu May 22, 2008 3:49 am

I never could understand the human need to cover shoulder and back hair.

jerkrecords · Post by **jerkrecords** » Tue May 27, 2008 12:02 pm

My logic isn't logical to everyone else as I'm one of those that will find faults that others may not hear, I am INCREDIBLY CRITICAL and have excessively high standards. When a cymbal is sitting on th stand, it's weight is depressed against the stand pushing on it even though there is a spacer and the felt. BUT when it's suspended, it is just that....suspended. It's hanging from above, not pushing below. The end result is an even balance of sustain across all frequencies. When cymbals resonate, the cymbal transmits sound through vibration and anything that touches it absorbs the energy whether it is even or not. So while it looks "1980-ish", it really does sound better NOW with that said, HEAVY duty stands make the difference as well---but I don't have the space for that.
_________________

this is just plain silly.
there is the same exact force acting upwards at the point of a cymbal on a stand (weather the mounting is from above or below). gravity is always acting in the same direction (down) and the mounting point (at the center of the cymbal) is countering that force (up) so that the cymbal is not falling towards the ground. Brad - in both cases the cymbal is being "pushed from below" as you stated.

i'd think you'd be more critical with the enormous amount of mics and subsequent possible phase problems with such a setup. 4 overheads?

-pete

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:14 pm

Nope, no phase issues at all...... Unfortunately, I can no longer do that miking as the room I'm in now doesn't provide the room to do it. You'd be amazed if you walked in on some drum session..... mics all over the place. AND just because they are there doesn't mean they are all in the mix. Remember, you can't mix in later what you didn't record in the first place. And yes, there IS a difference in resonance on how they are mounted. It's one of those things that collectively, it makes a minor difference that adds up.....just like inserting cheap cables.

jerkrecords · Post by **jerkrecords** » Tue May 27, 2008 5:39 pm

"if i walked in on some drum session"???

as a drummer for over 30 years and an engineer for 12 i believe i've seen mics on a drumset before. thanks for the tip though.
I'm sorry - there is no physical reason why hanging a cymbal from above or below would make any difference in how the metal is resonating. i'm willing to bet that the differences you've heard in your A/B testing are the result of the cymbal's position changing with respect to the mic as you're changing the stand configuration.

-pete

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed May 28, 2008 4:32 am

I'm talking what you hear in the room...NOT what you hear in the mics in respect to the hanging v/s suspending of the crashes. As to the mic placement and phase non-issues... I listen before I record. The mics out in front of the kit are for getting the lower resonance of the shells where the mics above are for the high frequency and sustain of the cymbals. If done right, it works----and my comment about "walking in on a session", I was merely stating if you walked into a pro studio on a pro session it's not at all surprisingly to find this kind of miking (and then some).

jerkrecords · Post by **jerkrecords** » Wed May 28, 2008 5:27 am

I'm talking what you hear in the room...NOT what you hear in the mics in respect to the hanging v/s suspending of the crashes.

i'm sorry but i'm not sure what this is supposed to mean with regards to you positing that cymbals sound better hung one way over the other.
anyway - i've said what needs to be said - whatever works for you i guess... as long as the clients are happy and don't mind your requests for reconfiguring their drums.

pete

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed May 28, 2008 7:50 am

I don't record other people in there, just myself and my own projects

Tritonemusic · Post by **Tritonemusic** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:16 pm

BradLyons wrote:I don't record other people in there, just myself and my own projects

But, you said this just the other day:

Yeah---I have a great drum kit, but I SUCK playing them. I have the kit so I can bring real drummers in and let me focus on the recording process. It works well that way.

BradLyons · Post by **BradLyons** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:18 pm

Yes, I'm not recording clients in a working studio---I'm bringing in drummers for my projects.

bolla · Post by **bolla** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:11 pm

My previous disbelief is now no longer suspended.

I'm now looking for some unbelievable suspenders.

Cheers, Bolla

Jim · Post by **Jim** » Thu May 29, 2008 6:25 am

jerkrecords wrote: there is no physical reason why hanging a cymbal from above or below would make any difference in how the metal is resonating. i'm willing to bet that the differences you've heard in your A/B testing are the result of the cymbal's position changing with respect to the mic as you're changing the stand configuration.

-pete

I don't buy Brad's explanation either, but I do agree that this stand configuration could change the sound, to a degree.

Here's why: Suspend a cymbal from a knotted rope. Hit the cymbal, and then move the rope up an down. You will hear a Doppler effect in your ears. Only, it will be more exaggerated than what you would hear from a cantilevered and more rigid cymbal stand. This kind of mounting would flex slightly, and would bounce up and down more than if the cymbal was mounted from below.

The difference would be infinitesimal though, due to the tolerances involved.

Whether this "sounds better" is a matter of personal opinion.

Brad also claims that miracles happen and angels intervene. There's nothing wrong with challenging illogical assertions, IMO. This is a discussion board, after all.

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