Sad story about my MOTU 896 Original

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:24 pm

Hello to everyone! Not really a noobie, but haven't visited this forum for some years, so here I am with new account.

Since I see there's a lot of problems with recent MOTU units/drivers, I thought I should share my thoughts and experience with all of you existing MOTU customers as well as potential MOTU customers...

I have been using MOTU 896 Original (96 KHz version, not 192 HD) since 2003, on AMD Athlon XP 2000+ processor, coupled with (completely unknown) Mercury motherboard (Kobian enterprise) KT266A FDSX. I'm not sure which chipset was used on motherboard, but since I never had any troubles/problems/issues I have never looked into it. Since the motherboard was very plain (it had only onboard audio, plus 2 USB 1.0 connectors), there was no firewire whatsoever. By MOTU recommendation, I got myself a Asus PCI firewire card with, you guess, Texas Instruments chip (paid 80 euros at the time).
Since I live in Serbia, getting a MOTU unit was extremely difficult and time consuming, but in the end I succeeded in getting a brand new MOTU 896, which I used with Magix Samplitude Professional. After a bit of experimentation, I set it up to work with ASIO drivers in Samplitude, with 128/256 samples latency. It worked perfectly. Same goes for music/video in Windows Media Player and WinAmp. No problems, no high pitched squeals, no clicks, pops, drop outs or lost connection. Of course, that computer was used ONLY for audio purposes and all other services, devices etc were disabled/removed, and I used the original Windows XP (no SP1, no SP2 or any patch whatsoever) until two weeks ago. During that time, I finished countless mixes, postproductions, synchronizations etc.
Of course, during that time, I upgraded to newer versions of Samplitude and Waves (the only two softwares I use), with no problems whatsoever. The last driver pack from MOTU that I installed was 3.32.
Meanwhile, I started to plan a hardware upgrade since I wanted a faster computer (don't we all?), even tho my setup had no problems.
So, after careful examination, I decided to go with Asus P5K Premium motherboard, Intel Core 2 Quad 2.4 GHz Q6600 processor (SLACR edition) with 2 GB of Kingston RAM, two WD SATA II drives, ATI Radeon HD 3650 graphic, Pioneer DVD writer, Antec power supply and Chieftec case. On top of all that, I got 4 x 80 mm Cooler Master fans, plus two dedicated hard drive fans since I wanted to seriously cool down those 4 cores and PC case in general. After careful consideration, I got an extra 120mm fan just in case, even tho the airflow in case was perfect.
As before, I armed myself with latest XP (SP2, 32 bit, never saw the need for 64 bit), latest MOTU driver pack (current one, actually), and latest version of Samplitude which supports quad core (I made sure of that with Magix's tech support).
Hardware installation went smoothly, all parameters were put on default or as recommended, installation of XP was a breeze (took less than 15 minutes, as all onboard devices were disabled, including LAN, WLAN, onboard audio, firewire etc). Installation of MOTU software pack and Samplitude was also trouble free. Oh yes, I kept my faithful Asus firewire Texas Instruments PCI card in the computer, since MOTU recommended it, I didn't want to take any risks. After all, it worked for nearly five years, why stop now? Anyways...
As you already guessed, now comes a big BUT!
I rebooted the computer, eager to see my new configuration at work. I switched on the MOTU unit, chose automatic searching for drivers, clicked on continue, and... during copying of first file in system32 folder, Windows froze. Ok, nothing special, I'll reboot and give it another try. Same thing. And once again. Strange, but hey, it's Windows and things like that happen. I uninstalled that pack, removed everything (with unwanted device driver removal, registry etc), and installed the next recent MOTU drivers, which is a driver pack form December 2006 (that's when I downloaded it but never used it, as there was nothing wrong with my system).
This time everything ran smoothly, I fired up Samplitude, chose MOTU firewire ASIO and began my work. My excitment started to fade and doubt began to settle as strange clicks and pops began to appear after about 30 minutes of work. After some time, clicks and pops started to become periods of silence of about 1 second, than 2 seconds, and finally the outputs were mute, and there was a horrible notification that my firewire device is no longer available. I checked the cable, restarted the unit and continued. After only 3 minutes of work, same thing. And again, and again...
To make a long story short (or shorter at least) since that day I reinstalled XP more than 5 times, always with same results. I tried every MS KB patch known to man, tried some advice from fellow colleagues, tried some procedure from RME site, tried other computers (including Dell laptop Pentium 3 and desktop Pentium 4), even tried first edition of XP (no service packs) and XP SP1, always with the same results.
As work began to pile up, I called for desperate measures - I contacted the tech support. You all know how it ends with tech support, so I won't bother you with that (I have a degree in audio engineering and I'm a certified system engineer, so can't really stand the questions like 'did you reboot' etc even tho I clearly stated that I did).
At the end, when I was at the end of my strength, I decided to do the most obvious thing - use my old computer. Yes, I kept it, even cleaned it up a little. And, to my horror, I realized that the SAME THING was happening on it as well... It was a clean XP (no SP) installation, with good old 3.2 MOTU drivers, but it didn't work. Same hardware, right to the same power supply, mouse and keyboard, but with no luck... so I finished all the work using onboard Realtek HD Audio (to my horror), and sat down to write this little story.
You can call it a rant, or desperate cry for help, or letting some steam off... I really feel gutted about this as I spent a lot of money on something completely useless (I mean new computer), and my faithful MOTU unit is sitting there, completely unusable.
Nevertheless, there is an upside in all of this. I'm a chief broadcast engineer at one of the national broadcast TV stations here, and as digital switchover is getting near, I have the task of completing the digitalization of studio equipment used in production, including all DAWs and NLEs. My first thought was MOTU, of course. It's solid, I used it, and they even made video interface with SDI (SD and HD) connection. Everything I hoped for.
Well, after all I've been through, I'll pass, thank you. It's a shame really, as there is basically nothing wrong with sound quality of MOTU units, and the quality/price ratio is really good. But, if MOTU really want to get out of project studios (don't mean anything bad by that) and get into professional facilities as commercial studios and broadcast (where the real money is, IMHO) they really need to put their act together and get serious. So, if anything, I spared myself of potential embarrassment and financial loss had I decided to go that way.
I still didn't gave up, I'll find a way to use my MOTU somehow (contrary to user manual, you can use it as standalone unit, you just need to set it up via computer first, and it stays that way, at least for some basic functions that I could use).
The only question that's bothering me is this - did the installation of recent drivers packs somehow affected my unit? I didn't remember the exact versions of firmware and hardware, but I think that I'm getting different values now.
If anyone has any idea about this, or about the whole problem in general, I would be very grateful.
Wish you luck with your MOTU gear.
M.

p.s. Sorry for the amount of text in this post, but I didn't want another post like 'I have this problem, could you help me...?' as these things should be taken seriously. By MOTU, not by us, users.

1nput0utput · Post by **1nput0utput** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:48 pm

If the same exact problem is happening with two different systems with the same firewire adapter, then it is likely that the problem is one of two things: either the 896 itself or the firewire adapter. Try a different firewire adapter. If the same problem happens, then the 896 will probably need to be serviced by MOTU.

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:02 am

Hi I/O, thanx for the reply. It's happening on different systems, but with different firewire adapters. It's the same on my computer, I have two firewire adapters, one integrated on the motherboard and one Asus PCI with TI chip.
I guess it's a 896 problem, since it's behaving badly on different computers with different firewire cards.
The problem is that it started behaving like that the moment I tried to install it on a new machine with new driver pack from MOTU (unsuccessfully, Windows froze when I rebooted and started hardware installation). That's why I asked if it was possible for new driver pack to change something in the unit itself (firmware, or something else). The weirdest of all is that it's functioning ok with older drivers and loses connection after some time. I always thought that it would go just dead if it were broken or something...

Mojofilter · Post by **Mojofilter** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:21 am

broadcastmilan:

Were you tilting your head to the left or to the right when the unit was working for that thirty-minute period? Seriously, it does whittle down to just the 896, although I've never heard of drivers corrupting or damaging hardware. The only remaining component common to both systems is the cable. Did you re-initialize the 896?

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:24 pm

Lol, I was tilting my head in disbelief

I see your point Mojo, I've also never heard or even imagined that drivers could in any way affect the device. That's why I asked, but I seriously doubt it.
Yes, I've changed the cable a few times (two 6/6 pins and one 6/4 pins) and tried different firewire slots on my MOTU unit and on my firewire card, got the same result.
What do you mean by 're-initializing' the unit?

For the moment, I found the (temporary) solution - as I need only stereo analog output from the unit, I'm using it via SPDIF integrated sound card on my mobo, with conversion to AES and hardware monitoring of AES inputs. Still, I would like to use (again) firewire connection, so I could have full capability.

As I said, the unit began malfunctioning the moment I hooked it up with the new configuration. If it were completely dead or something similar, I wouldn't make a fuss, but this on and off state is driving me crazy. Still, this will hang on I hope until I buy a new interface.

Mojofilter · Post by **Mojofilter** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:04 pm

Ha! No doubt, I'd be tilting my head in disbelief, too.

By re-initializing I simply mean return all internal settings to factory default. I don't own an 896 so I'm won't be of much help to you, but I'm assuming there is a software switch or power-up sequence that resets the unit to its default settings (?).

After re-reading your post the only possibility I can think of, provided your 896 is not faulty, is the ASUS 1394 card. If I understand correctly you swapped that card between systems, right? If it failed it would stand to reason that the anomalies would be present on both systems. Also, what 1394 controller does your Asus P5K Premium mobo have? Agere? NEC? Regardless, I'd connect it to the on-board controller just to see if identical problems are repeated.

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:25 pm

Well, when you restart the device (off and on), the settings in MOTU Audio Setup window stay the same. Once you reinstall drivers, device or XP (take your pick) the configuration is back to factory settings. I tried all of that of course, no change.

The unit is playing on AES in/analog out for quite some time now, no problems, so there is definitively something wrong in the 'firewire section' of the device, but only there.

Since there is no way to send the unit back to USA for service, I'll have it checked by our technicians at TV station. It wouldn't be the first device with faulty firewire there, I just hope it's in analog rather than digital domain.

Any news maybe on new driver pack from MOTU?

Mojofilter · Post by **Mojofilter** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:36 pm

I was in the process of editing my previous post when you replied. The last paragraph was added.

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:12 pm

Cheers for all the help Mojo

I did swap the Asus 1394 card between systems, but I also tried onboard 1394 controller (on my P5K Premium) with the exact same results, so I guess it's safe to rule out the card. The onboard 1394 chip is Agere.

I'll try the unit one more time on the laptop I used for location recording, the setup wasn't modified since. I'll post the results here, I see that a lot of people here has similar/same problems as I do.

Amnion165 · Post by **Amnion165** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:36 pm

I have a similar story and unfortunately, it ends the same way haha. When I started reading your original post, it sounded alll too familiar, except my story involved vista. I have the original 896 after many years and many dead channels (4 to be exact) it has hung in there. I have been using the 896 with the 32-bit drivers for vista with no problems what so ever, but the downside was I couldn't use more than 2GB of ram. So when I went to 6, the unit would not output audio. I contacted tech support who gave me a beta version for the 64bit drivers. So i installed them and sure enough after the installation was finished, i turned on the 896 and windows just froze. I did some trouble-shooting and tried different firewire ports (one stand alone card and then the one on my motherboard). I tried different cables. The only way to fix the problem was to system restore back to the point before i installed the drivers then everything was ok. So skip ahead to a month or two later, i see that they released the drivers sometime in april, so I thought I would give it another go. Installed the drivers, and sure enough, right when i turned the 896 on, windows froze. So I am right back to where I started, and in my opinion, i think it might just be worth it to go with another interface. I have 4GB of ram sitting on my table because i can't use it with the 896!

So the point of my story was, it happened to me too. Maybe there is something with the orginal 896 that just doesn't work with new drivers. But know i am there with you on this one buddy!

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:54 pm

Thanx Amnion, sorry to hear you have same problems as me...

However, your post was useful, as I was thinking about trying my device on Vista or 64bit XP, so you saved me some time

I'm not saying that I would go back to my 'original' computer, but it puzzles me why does my unit now misbehave on the old setup as well? At least you're able to use yours (via firewire) with lesser amount of RAM, which is annoying, I know, but nevertheless... I'll ask around about the RAM issue, there was a guy I know who claimed that there was a patch of some sort that would let you use more than 4 GB of RAM in 32bit operating system, so that's worth a shot. If I understand correctly, you have problems on 64bit system and 6GB of RAM?

Did you notify them about the Windows freezing?

I don't want to sound bitter, but I'll really think next time (which is near) about getting another MOTU, I guess I'll probably go with something else.

elbowgeek · Post by **elbowgeek** » Wed May 07, 2008 12:40 pm

I just wanted to add my voice to those with the same problem. In my case I noticed that the MOTU wasn't outputting audio from Windows applications such as Media Player, so I decided to reinstall the latest drivers. Sho nuff, it froze to death.

Interestingly, I then tried it on a Mac system (G5 Quad, 4GB RAM, etc.) and it actually did recognize the MOTU 896 and played a tune or two. Heartened, I then tried it again on my PC. Now it doesn't even try to install the drivers, so I tried forcing it to look; it will then say that it's found an audio device, but says it can't find the drivers!

I do think it may be croaked though, as I plugged a guitar into it and cranked the gain, but didn't see any activity on the channel.

If anyone has any insight I'd be very happy though as to replace this with another 896 original is very expensive.

Cheers

Oops, for got to add: I then tried the 896 on the Mac again, but now the Mac won't recognize it at all. This is all too weird.

Cheers again!

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Thu May 08, 2008 6:20 am

There is obviously some problem with 896 units and latest driver pack (as far as firewire is concerned). My main concern is why I'm not able to use my unit on old computer with old drivers. It has began malfunctioning the moment I installed it on my new computer with new drivers. I'm still waiting the response from the technical department of my TV station, but at least it works on AES connection (hardware monitoring of AES input).

Will post here if there's any solution to this problem.

M.

p.s. I received yet another reply from MOTU tech support - on my question why my unit isn't working with the latest drivers, I got this reply: "Have you tried installing the latest driver pack?"

... Looks like guys there have a particular sense of humor...

elbowgeek · Post by **elbowgeek** » Fri May 09, 2008 4:58 pm

Good lord, those MOTU techs certainly are sharp buggers lol.

I'm going to have a go at getting some joy out of any of the inputs. I tried a mic input to no avail, but I'll have another go. Mine seems to have all the correct lights on when it turns on, so I'm not convinced that it's completely dead.

Another side note: I now realize why these are such good and sought-after units. I've got an M-Audio unit on my computer as a temporary replacement, and tried recording some vocals today. The way in which the MOTU deals with overs is vastly better than the M-Audio, and the mic preamps are a worlds better.

Cheers

broadcastmilan · Post by **broadcastmilan** » Sun May 11, 2008 3:39 am

I agree - for the money paid, AD and DA conversion are good, the preamp quality is good, a bit weak (it has to be set almost to the max for the quiet sources), but on the other hand with virtually no noise.
MOTU devices are good value for money, IF you can get them to work and IF they stay that way. More to do with firmware, software, drivers, firewire protocols and interfaces (on the device itself), than with usual AD/DA and preamp electronics.