Download NIN-The Slip FREE!!

[monkey man]

Gets up my nostrils too, this established-artists-giving-their-music-away thing.
No fence-sitting here - I wholeheartedly agree with James.

[kassonica]

I disagree

Sorry cornies

The days of releasing albums and then selling them through tours it seems is over.

It seems that you sell the tour through the album cause it can't be copied.

My 5 cents of course

[monkey man]

What if you don't/can't tour, Mark?

It's usually the music we're trying to sell after all, not a show.

[kassonica]

I agree

But once you have released a CD who is going to buy it when it can be downloaded for free if your a name artist.

People, the fans do but only when it comes with something extra, vinyl DVD quality signed etc.

So if your that person, you sell the tour.

I'm not saying this is the best system, but it seems the goal posts have moved.

And if we don't move with them. we're left behind

I don't think Trent Reznor giving away one free album is going to change much in this regard.

You have had to pay for all his other releases and I'm sure he will put out a vinyl release or something that you will have to buy.

There are no easy answers thats for sure but the times are a changing and there is no way to turn the clock back.

[billf]

What if you don't/can't tour, Mark?

It's usually the music we're trying to sell after all, not a show.

Hey Nicky, here's my .02 ¢

I agree with kassonica, the days of selling records are vanishing rapidly. I also think that what the RIAA is doing regarding P2P is having a more negative effect on the value of music than anything Trent Reznor is doing. I mean what sort of Twilight Zone model have we entered where the RIAA is suing people who are music fans? Are you telling me this really helps? From everything I see it is just alienating fans more and more. The RIAA is drawing battle lines with the very people who we want to buy our music. That seems like a monumentally bad approach.

As to alternative models, I don't think there has been enough experimentation yet to really say for certain what the new business models will be, but I believe this is the most important aspect of what NIN and Radiohead are doing. They can afford to experiment, and through their successes and failures (and community discussion about both), new ideas will start to emerge. I just feel that for us to sit and complain about change doesn't accomplish anything, and fighting it only alienates listeners further. So maybe the time has come for us to collectively look at what we can do differently to create new markets for music.

[monkey man]

Agreed, Mark.

One thing I'd like to propose though, is that IMHO, if we could learn as a society that reverting to previous, superior values and procedures isn't turning the clock back, but moving forward, we'd all be better off.

Hey, as a bonus it'd nip the "change for change's sake" thing in the bud.

EDIT: Hey Billy, sorry I missed your post man.
The bottom line for me is that our art is worth a whole lot more than money, so from my perspective, even taking money for it is a compromise of sorts.

Also, all the RIAA stuff and legal battles aren't really well known or understood by the GP; it just sees more and more bands giving their stuff away, which contradicts all efforts to place on and maintain value of our product.
Heck, I've not made a cent out of music yet, but I have to believe it'll be possible in the future, so I sure hope something equitable is settled on.

[James Steele]

I mean what sort of Twilight Zone model have we entered where the RIAA is suing people who are music fans?

No... they're suing people who are THIEVES.

If I'm a "fan" of MOTU, so in my enthusiasm, I download a pirated copy of Digital Performer, and MOTU sues me, they're the bad guy, right?

I'm sorry... I know what you're trying to say, but these people are not just "fans" but "thieves" too. Real fans pay for the music to support the artists they like.

[bongo_x]

I am guessing that Reznor, like many others, believes that his best chance to make a living comes from touring.

I agree with the idea that we are moving/have moved to a model of the album being promo for the live show. What I think many of you are forgetting is that that is the way it has always been. There has only been a short period of history (30-40 years?) where people made the majority of their money from album sales. Live music is what musicians do historically, and it's what they get paid for.

I also think it's been longer coming than it would appear if you're only watching the big acts. Smaller acts never made any money from record sales even when the majors were doing fine. I have friends who've made a living for 20 years on touring and merch sales. I know lots of people who made records for major labels and never made a dime. Most people who put out records would fall into that category.

What if you can't play live or tour? I don't know, what if you can't sing? What if you can't write good songs? I don't know of any guarantee of making a living in music.

bb

[monkey man]

What if you can't play live or tour? I don't know, what if you can't sing? What if you can't write good songs? I don't know of any guarantee of making a living in music.
bb

Hey bongo, I'm not sure this is a fair "comparison".
Many solo artists (including myself) cannot afford the time, energy and money it takes to put a band together and tour just to repeat what's already been done in the studio.
Some may be too disabled to tour, or just plain sick (like me ).

Now, if you can't sing, play or write half decent songs, I see this as a different issue altogether, and one that's practically unfixable.

[Spikey Horse]

People buy ring tones for their phones but downloading albums are free ... what kind of world is this !!??

I also don't think individual artists doing things like this changes the value of music ... rather, they are reflecting how the value (and the whole concept) of albums (or any kind of release) is changing ....

I propose that the fundamental reason for everything changing though is the internet.

What NIN/ Radiohead are doing is just adapting to how they (as massively succesuful artists with big back catalogues and touring potential etc etc) fit in to a world with the internet.

IOW if 99% of all music artists flew to the moon the other 1% left behind would still be having to figure out new ways to earn money as an artist in the internet age. That is 'earn money' which is not quite the same as 'sell albums'.

Added to this you have the issue of net neutrality which it seems is being eroded as we speak .... My vision of 'Internet II' is of it being just another one-way mass media outlet: think 'FOX + MTV + Myspace+ emails' on your computer. 'Hurray' .... However good or bad the net is for artists now (and IMO it is kind of both) once net neutrality is lost there will be no more potential net wise for anything not being run entirely by big business.

But bearing all that in mind ...... and thinking abstractly/ philosophically for a moment though ...... I have to admit in a way, as a performing musician who considers playing live music on stage with real instruments and a real audience to be what I do .. and the rest to be secondary to that at best - I kind of like the idea of all music becoming worthless as a commodity and the only thing of value being real performances, events .... basically anything which can't be copied digitally ....

(although I have to say beyond a certain size of venue 'playing live' kind of becomes little more than 'selling the idea of playing live' - huge stadium shows, while more profitable, *generally* suck IMO)

I mean music has for all the ages been about a shared event and events on the whole can't be faked. It is only with the introduction of (technologically manipulated/enhanced) recorded music that it has become possible to sell such style over content that we see all around us on the kind of massive scale today. I'm not just talking bad music but un-music.

It just kind of feel 'right' (ie inevitable) that all recorded music should become worthless at this point in time.

IMHO unless your ambition is X-factor/ Idol/ Kooks or whatever I think we all need to be very, very imaginative, fluid and kind of in touch yet aloof.

I also think as long as the big corporations can be sidelined business models will naturally evolve that work for all and are based on collaboration .. because that is how most humans work! (given half a chance!!!!)

However due to the bit about needing to bypass big corporations I'd say we're all (99.9% of us) are screwed - as usual!

[billf]

No... they're suing people who are THIEVES.

Geez, back off buddy. There are plenty of cases where there is zero proof that the person sued did anything.

[Tritonemusic]

I'll stay out of the debate. I must say, however, I'm really diggin' some of the guitar sounds.

[monkey man]

No... they're suing people who are THIEVES.

Geez, back off buddy. There are plenty of cases where there is zero proof that the person sued did anything.

Hang on Billy... they're guilty 'til proven innocent, aren't they?

[James Steele]

No... they're suing people who are THIEVES.

Geez, back off buddy. There are plenty of cases where there is zero proof that the person sued did anything.

I won't back off, bill. Seems everybody is allowed to throw around their opinions here, so I'll throw off mine. Generally the people that got sued were the most blatant offenders, and there was enough evidence... their IP address, etc... linking them to downloading thousands of songs illegally.

I'm sorry if the word "THIEF" offends someone, but to call them "fans" was like the American press repeatedly calling Rodney King a "motorist." Really? "Convicted felon, hopped up on PCP" might have been too prejudicial. I'm not condoning what the LA cops did to him... not one bit. I also didn't condone some kid busting Reginald Denny's head with a brick, and making a statement for social justice by stealing televisions escapes me, but what do I know?

Fact is, people who download songs from filesharing sites are STEALING and thus are THIEVES. They may also be fans... but they're thieves too. When they go on to bit torrent and download movies instead of renting them, they also THIEVES. Until the movie industry can figure out a way to tour and sell T-shirts, I guess they should give away movies as part of the new business model, right? Up until recently, the movie industry didn't give a crap as the music industry bled, because they were safe behind the bandwidth problems with downloading feature films. Now, however, they're concerned.

So... let's see... if we're all supposed to give music away and make money selling T-Shirts and touring, what does that do to songwriters? I'm guessing they still have revenue from fees collected from clubs, radio stations, etc by performing rights agencies? But not all songwriters can tour and sell shirts.

What bothers me bill... is that just because theft is widespread, doesn't mean it's not theft. If the owner of the intellectual property wishes to give it away that's one thing. But until that time, downloading music from file sharing sites IS stealing, and the people doing it, whether they're fans or not, are stealing. How would that be any different than if you were playing on stage, and some "fan" ran over to the side of the stage, grabbed an armful of $20/each band T-shirts you were selling, and ran off with them? Would that then be a "fan" or a "thief?"

Frankly, I don't care what people think of me, because Metallica had it dead right. If I choose to give my music away to someone fine... but if I don't and if someone steals it from me and make copies for all their friends, then that "fan" is no friend. The problem frankly is education and that this theft is treated so casually because there is so little ability to prosecute it.

So we throw up our collective hands and say "well, people are just going to steal music... so that's how it is." Why the hell then even have iTunes or CDs? Let's convince all the bands to just upload their masters to a file sharing site soon as they're ready and get out there and START TOURING!!!! Makes me wonder if this is why so many tours are sponsored by "Bud Light" and all the corporate sponsorship. And it could be that maybe illegal downloading is contributing to rising concert prices. It may be ironic that the people stealing music would be complaining about high concert ticket prices, but if touring becomes a band's primary income stream then it stands to reason they will have to charge more to offset losses or weak revenue from recording and songwriting royalties, etc.

Frankly, indy musicians who are decent should be able to shoot for AT LEAST recouping costs of making the CD itself from sales-- assuming the music is decent. Loading a band into a van with a trailer, and touring small clubs with gas hovering at $4 gallon, and hoping to make decent money is a stretch.

I know... I know... we're supposed to do music because we LOVE it right? But remove any financial incentive from any industry and what happens? Quality will go down. Intelligent people, will at some point realize it's just not worth it. Basically, I've said it many times-- there is a shrinking middle class in the music business. There's little room for the middle and at a certain point you're not going to want to work that hard to make less money than your neighbor who works as a checker at your local grocery store (and has health insurance too.)

I remember engaging in an argument about piracy years ago on a board with a college kid who was studying to be a computer programmer. It was on the heels of the whole Metallica "controversy." He was slamming those rich, greedy Metallica guys and saying they should do music for the love of it... not for money. I suggested to him that he should imagine finally graduating from college with his degree and landing a great job as a computer programmer. Finally, his first payday comes... and he finds his paycheck envelope on his desk and eagerly opens it. Inside there is no check, but instead a note that reads: "YOU LOVE PROGRAMMING, DON'T YOU? YOU SHOULD BE DOING THIS FOR THE LOVE OF PROGRAMMING, NOT MONEY!"

Any way... I've gone on too long. But I've run this board for years and I've watched as people have loudly asserted a right to have an opinion and this is mine and I have right to it. Maybe someday music will be given away free on a widespread basis, however, there is no escaping the fact that if you download copyrighted commercial music without paying for it, YOU ARE STEALING.

[kgdrum]

well part of the discussion that is being overlooked is the reality as Trent Reznor sees it and his reactions to the music business he actually experienced.
he was locked into one of the worst record contracts ever and managed to go to court recently and set himself up as a Free Agent.
he has released about 5 albums in the last 2 years after not releasing new stuff for a while.if he wants to "thank"(brilliant way to promote his NEW Recent catalog) his fans(like myself who support him with purchases ) I have bought Ghost,Remix and with Teeth on LP,cost about $100 and ,
I have also bought cd's of his other stuff another $60.
I have dowloaded the new 1 but I know I will also purchase the Vinyl when it gets released this summer,yes I am a hard core NIN fan.
I predict he will have music fans who have never bought a NIN disc ,or even heard his music purchase his entire catalog .
Yes some people will complain it's not a level playing field and it's not its the Music Business and for years it was all in the record companies favor .
I can not begrudge any one who is able to rebound and take control of their own destiny.Reznor will figure out ways to make a a better living now and become more well known while 99% of other artists don't have a clue about how to adapt to the new game and rules(market themselves) we refer to as the music business.
he will get more people to hear his music and I think he will sell more of the his product this year because he has a plan and vision .
he a creative guy musically as well as creative in a business sense (thats 1 more way he continues to be successful)
over the years too many times I've seen creative types ,myself included who might be as talented or more so than the other guy but he might have that extra business sense or marketing skills that might earn him the gig.
Many times I would moan at my own misfortune but the reality is the people who are successful usually have both sides of the equation covered

I actually think NIN will sell more copies of the new project when he releases it on a commercial level than any Album he has released to date
he is going to build his value up ,I really don't think he will miss any sales from doing a great PR marketing move.I don't think he will hurt anyone.
he is showing us all a new way to approach the business side of the music business.
KG