Interested in learning about DPs Score Editor

[vi_composer]

Greetings!

I'm new to this forum and am currently a Logic Studio user interested in a possible switch to DP, hopefully 6 if they can get it out relatively soon.

I write music for independent films in the Midwest and often use real musicians in my mix. A sequencer's score editing is VERY important to me! However, I also do a lot of conducting during my projects. When I saw the ribbons and other video overlays to assist conductors, I felt compelled to investigate DP.

I have three questions:

1. Are there online resources where I can learn about the score editor specifically?

2. Does anyone have any personal experience with the score editor, good or bad, that they would like to share?

3. Finally, does the score editor have the ability to create dynamic markings, hairpins, and does it have 11x17 page format support?

I appreciate any insights or advice that you guys would like to share!

[Dwetmaster]

DP is the best DAW I ever used IMHO. UNFORTUNATELY the scoring are NOT its strongest points AT ALL.

If you do a search on this board for " quickscribe " you should find all the answers you need.

[vi_composer]

Thanks Dwetmaster!

I'll take your advice and report back any interesting findings.

[vi_composer]

Well, it is with great disappointment that I must concur with Dwetmaster based on what I've read on this forum.

I think I can sum up my experience by quoting a member named Frodo. When asked whether or not DP could produce slurs or glissandi Frodo responded as follows.

[quote]

Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject:
Yes.

This feature goes by at least two other names: Sibelius and Finale.

No slurs in QS, and certain "window dressing" markers such as glisses are just AWOL.

You've cited two more very basic things that are inexplicably non-existent.

[close quote]

I've also read of people having issues viewing full orchestral scores in Quickscribe unless they change the page size to 36". This is simply ludicrous.

DP should not claim to have a score editor that can "print scores and parts for musicians" if it cannot produce slurs, glissandi, and full orchestral scores. Which musicians is MOTU referring to, my four buddies playing in my Mother's garage? MOTU should not tote DP as the top choice for film composers (who by the way usually compose for full orchestra) and also say that they have a score editor that can print scores and parts for musicians. DP, according to this forum's members, simply cannot. Perhaps this is why DP refers to this editor as "Quickscribe" instead of some phrase with the word "score" in it. If you're not able to put a slur in your music, than you really shouldn't call it a "score." A sketch maybe, at best.

For the record, I think members of this forum should know that the score editor in Logic is a true score editor. It has the ability to produce dynamics, articulations, relevant page formatting, text with various fonts, key changes, tempo changes, pickup measures, rehearsal letters (or numbers), grace notes, cue notes, and many other necessary features for producing FULL orchestral scores. I actually used Logic's score editor to produce a score and parts read by the MSU Symphony Orchestra with terrific results.

If you are Howard Shore and have a whole team of orchestrators that take your DP file and turn it into sheet music then I suppose this discussion is moot. However if you are like the vast majority of digital composers who need to (and desire to) compose AND orchestrate their music for real musicians, then DP falls desperately short. Why should I need to spend $500 on Finale or Sibelius when I've (for sake of argument only) spent $500 on DP? I can spend $500 on Logic Studio and get a sequencer with great MIDI editing, audio editing, and score editing! Sure, if I want to publish my music I'll have to get my score into Finale or Sibelius, but if I want to simply pass it out to an orchestra without embarrassing myself, my sequencer should be able to do that for me. And, if I have not already beaten this to death, Logic can.

Just FYI.

I had hoped to pickup DP for the conducting assist tools. However, what good is conducting assist if I can't pass out music for people to conduct to? Am I the only person who feels that it is quite odd that DP goes to all the trouble to create ribbons for conductors but does not match the basic score editing techniques in other DAWs?

Well, before I get stoned, I should close.

I do, sincerely, want to thank Dwetmaster one more time for his thoughtful and speedy reply to my query. I would also like to say that I'm sincerely grateful to this forum for helping to me better understand the pros and cons of DP.

[Dwetmaster]

But don't get me wrong, DP has a whole lot of other feature that makes up for its weaknesses in scoring...

[FMiguelez]

.

Just because you can't print your scores with slurs doesn't mean DP isn't a top choice among top film composers. It has TONS of other more important features, you know?

DP seems to be good enough for them. Pity it's not good for you.

What's the big deal about using a dedicated music notation program, such as Finale? People import into Finale DP-created music ALL THE TIME (or the other way around).

If you really want a professional looking score, you need a dedicated/specialized app for that purpose. This, of course, does not include logic.

[MIDI Life Crisis]

Well, it seems to me we are talking about a few different things here.

Creating ribbons or other visual film cue points is a function of the MOVIE aspect of DP and would be helpful in preparing a score for you as a conductor. You could also preset your metronome if that is something you need.

Creating printed scores is another matter and the de facto apps for this are Finale and Sibelius (as mentioned above).

As a conductor and a composer, one wants to be as clear and simple on the printed page as possible. You also need to have all musical symbols at your disposal, as well as the ability to create intelligent page turns, properly engraved scores, great typefaces and many other tools (such as TG tools for Finale) to create gliss, tr~, pizz., lyrics, etc. At least when time and money is important (and when isn't it?) your score preparation is critical and a DAW - ANY DAW - is not going to cut it in that area.

DP is fine for a quick printout for reference and maybe for a band, but if you are talking about orchestral scores or more serious ensembles, you HAVE TO go with a dedicated notation program... IMO.

[FMiguelez]

.

VI Composer:

Do you REALLY think Logic is "a true score editor" ?????????

I'd check it out thoroughly before falling for it if I was you...

Trying to do a professional score for a whole orchestra in a DAW is like trying to create an extremely complex mix in Finale. Sure, you can set volumes and mix, but never with the same amount of detail, speed, accuracy, and complexity that a great DAW (such as DP) will allow you.

Sure you can obtain good results from Logic's notator (or whatever it's called) for a band, or a small chamber group (that does not require anything more than basic writing), but you will very soon discover it has a million areas where it will fall almost as short as DP's QS.

Go for a notation app.

My 2 pesos.

[vi_composer]

Ok,

First, let me apologize for my strong response. If I offended any of you fine people here on the forum, that certainly was not my intention. I know that we are all fiercely defensive of our DAWs and I think that is a good thing. By defending DP you've certainly shown me that it has great value to you as composers and I think that is terrific, seriously.

Let me clarify my remarks:

Recording Session VS Publishing.

Having both participated in recording sessions, and getting some music actually published, I've learned that there is a strong difference between music for sessions and music for publishing. The latter is much more strict, primarily because there are entire texts written with nothing but publishing house rules in mind. Schirmer has its own manual that they publish themselves, for example.

Session music, on the other hand, simply needs to be legible and complete. By complete I mean having proper markings. Ask any string player and they'll tell you that playing four notes in a row without a slur and then with a slur will yield very different results. Also if the players don't have trill markings, they won't trill, and if they don't have dynamic markings, they won't know how loud or soft to play, etc.

So: session music - complete and legible

published music - much more strict and based on a text book of rules

My issue is with stream of consciousness, or more simply, workflow.
I like (and this is just me here) to compose using a keyboard and then record directly into the DAW. I then use quantize features to clean it up. Having used Finale for over 10 years and Sibelius for about 4 years, I must say that the level of detail in both is great, however the user interface is cumbersome, especially when it comes to quantizing MIDI.

When bringing MIDI into Finale, for example, I found that I needed to quantize the same MIDI file two or three different ways so that I could copy and paste the sections that were legible into one master document. While this ultimately worked, it was very time consuming.

With Logic, I can quantize the MIDI data and then the Score Editor will reflect the changes. This is critical. In addition, I'm able to host virtual instruments with a significant performance increase. Finale and Sibelius do have AU support but it is currently quite limited and, for me, absolutely useless. With Logic, I'm using one program, not two, and I'm saving a significant amount of time with quantizing, while simultaneously getting better sounding playback and overall performance.

To answer a posted question, YES I do think that Logic has a true score editor. However, as I said in my last post, I do NOT think that it is good enough for publication, as the rules are simply more specific than Logic can accommodate.

Ultimately, my workflow requires a a DAW that can create a solid, working score that is "session-worthy." With the demanding deadlines of post work, I simply don't have the time to jump through the extra hoops that Finale or Sibelius creates.

In closing, I freely admit that I'm in the minority here and also that there are many more positive things that are said about DP on this forum than negative. While I don't think that the program will work for me, it certainly appears to be working quite well for many of you! I'm genuinely pleased at this fact and will continue to follow DP updates and news to see if Quickscribe gets enhanced.

Thank you for such a spirited discussion on a really important topic!

[FMiguelez]

.

Welcome back, VI Composer!

You seem to be a very smart guy. And I personally do appreciate your words in the first paragraph of your post above. I certainly respect that.

Ok. So you found one of DP's major flaws. Too bad THAT particular flaw makes it much less useful to you. Now that you explained what your issues are, I can see where you're coming from.

So yes, if you need to produce a score quickly, without switching apps and everything, then Logic seems to be a good choice. As you sure know, no DAW is perfect. Logic wouldn't be MY choice for composing music, but that's just my preference.

If you already own DP you might want to ask some of the guys here who deal with huge orchestral scores about using Finale and DP. I know they do that quite often, and they are like totally cool and knowledgeable. Perhaps you can try it when the deadlines are not strangling you...

Frodo and MLC do a LOT of this stuff, so if there's someone with fast work flows who have lots of experience doing this, that's them.

But hey, at the end of the day, the ONLY THING THAT MATTERS is what your music sounds like, not what you create it with. DAWS are just tools, and as long as you find ANY tool that maximizes your work flow so the creative energy doesn't get wasted by dealing with technical computer stuff, then that's the most important aspect to consider.

Good luck, and drop by sometimes. MOTU might just surprise us all with DP6 with last-minute tweaks we still don't know about

Cheers, and happy composing!

[JMage]

I have to say, the absence of slurs is so very sad. I am an avid DP user, and I just need to export a score of a "virtual" string quartet I did for an informal performance by an ACTUAL string quartet...and I will not be able to do it in DP, because of the lack of slurs. Logic, here i come. (can't afford Sibelius of Finale at present...and anyway, DP Quickscribe has served me well in all other uses than writing for strings!)

[nickysnd]

String quartets, slurs and all - NotePad will do it for 10 bucks.
http://www.finalemusic.com/NotePad/