828mk3 - inflexible signal routing from computer to 828mk3

PostPCMan · Post by **PostPCMan** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:16 am

I'm moving to the 828mk3 from a Tascam dm-24 digital mixer, and the routing of the computer audio outputs surprises me.

On the dm-24, the computer had 8 outputs via firewire to the mixer. Those came into the mixer as input channels, very much like the adat digital channels come into the 828mk3. They each had fader and eq & meter, and I could route them to buses and outputs as I chose.

With the 828mk3, the computer outputs don't come in as inputs, but rather go right to a specific 828 output. So, on the computer, one selects analog out 1, or main out L, or whatever, and the signal is just summed in to that output. There's no channel fader or meter on the 828 specific to the computer output. The only way to meter the computer output on the 828 is the actual output meter, which of course also includes anything else routed to that output. There's no way to add reverb or eq (not a big deal) or even to attenuate (a much bigger deal) the computer output on the 828 itself.

Is it just me, or does that seem very inflexible? It would be nice to have some control over the computer->828 signals, at the very least an attenuation knob akin to a return knob on the selected output. As it is, the only way to balance the computer level with the levels of other inputs coming into the 828 and being monitored is to either modify all of those other input levels, or to control the computer output at its source, in the DAW or whatever.

My guess is that this is all baked into the hardware since, for instance, there's no physical LEDs on the 828 that could be assigned for this purpose (maybe some of the adat in channels could be assigned?) so it's not likely to change. Since CueMix FX is a reflection of the hardware capability, it probably can't be added there either.

So, since this is my first experience with a unit like this rather than a full-up mixing board, I was wondering if this is typical, and if others see it as a problem / nuisance? Was I expecting too much?

1nput0utput · Post by **1nput0utput** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:42 am

This is how most audio interfaces work, including the 828 Original, 828mkII, Traveler, etc. The 828mk3 is an interface after all, not a console.

PostPCMan · Post by **PostPCMan** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:33 am

I know that tht 828mk3 is not a console, but it is advertised as including a digital mixer, which ideed it does. In fact, with CueMix FX and its reverb / eq capabilities, it's a reasonably nice digital mixer. That's why this seemed like an odd omission, something that could be improved a lot pretty easily, by a computer "return" knob on each output channel. If they wanted to go crazy, maybe a way to meter it as well.

I know it's not the end of the world, and I'll keep and be happy with my 828mk3, since it's freed up lots of desk space for me and I can do what I need to do with it. I just wondered whether I might be missing something obvious. If not, I hope somebody from motu is reading this and might someday do something useful with the comments.

enigmatunes · Post by **enigmatunes** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:43 am

Nope, you're not missing anything. 1nput0utput was spot on: this is the way most audio interfaces (and perhaps all MOTU audio interfaces) work, I believe.
All MOTU audio interfaces with CueMix (and now the 828mk3 with CueMix FX) can act as mixers in the purest sense: audio comes in and you can mix it right back out. When they are acting as audio interfaces the majority of the output control lies within the computer (the only exception being the volume control over the phones/mains).

I can see how finer control could be useful, but in most cases I'd rather have control over panning/effects/etc in the DAW (DP, of course

).
You can suggest things to MOTU here:
http://www.motu.com/suggestions
Supposedly this is the route to get suggestions to dev team...

NinjaShredder · Post by **NinjaShredder** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 2:56 pm

Seeing as the 828mk3 now has two ADAT ports in either direction, it might not be a problem for you to use one pair looped straight back into itself. Connect a short optical cable from one ADAT out straight back into an ADAT in, then you can assign an output from software to one of the 8 ADAT channels, and this will be seen in CueMix as an input to the mixer.

PostPCMan · Post by **PostPCMan** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:07 am

Thanks, ninja. That's a clever idea and I'll try it when I get home from my travels. Shouldn't add much latency, I expect.

BTW, I checked a couple of other interfaces, just to see how they do this. The new TC Elektronic Studio Konnekt 48 does bring the computer back in as channels that can be controlled and monitored. I can't tell on the RME Fireface 800 - the doc is too hard to understand.

I'll submit this to the motu suggestion box.

enigmatunes · Post by **enigmatunes** » Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:32 pm

NinjaShredder wrote:... then you can assign an output from software to one of the 8 ADAT channels, and this will be seen in CueMix as an input to the mixer.

I do this with the SPDIF I/O on my Traveler so that I can route the SPDIF return to both my main outs and to my analog 3-4 for output to another set of speakers elsewhere. Vol control from CueMix.

PostPCMan wrote:Shouldn't add much latency, I expect.

Shouldn't add any latency since the loop is completely digital. A very small amount of conversion latency would be added if you looped, say, analog out 7-8 into a pair of analog inputs.
All-in-all the digital-loop-for-added-output-routing-options works well.

cyberpink · Post by **cyberpink** » Tue May 20, 2008 6:57 pm

most modern soundcard offers you virtual outs for the softwares to go in the mixer (echo, m-audio)
the motu way is a bit imiting but

my wrkaround: I use 1 adat cable from the in to the out of the card, and use those 8 outs fro things I want in the cue mix mixer (i had to stop and use only one pair (aes ebu) since i got an octane preamp, that's why i'll get the 828MKIII cause it has 2 adat busses)